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George Faller [00:00:29]:

The following content is not suitable for children.

Laurie Watson [00:00:31]:

OK, what do we need? How do we get to our partner when they are hurting to stop the negative cycle? And what do we need inside when we’re either shut down or we’re just feeling so angry and frustrated?

George Faller [00:00:45]:

Woo is the million dollar question, Laurie. What do you need? It solves all our problems. At the heart of any cycle is unmet needs, right? If you could meet your needs, you wouldn’t be in a negative cycle. A negative cycle is a failed repair attempt, right? You can’t get what it is you’re looking for.

Laurie Watson [00:01:07]:

Welcome to foreplay sex therapy. I’m Dr. Lori Watson, your sex therapist.

George Faller [00:01:12]:

And I’m George Faller your couple’s therapist.

Laurie Watson [00:01:15]:

We are here to talk about sex.

George Faller [00:01:17]:

Our mission is to help couples talk about sex in ways that incorporate their body, their mind and their hearts.

Laurie Watson [00:01:25]:

And we have a little bit of fun doing it. Right, G?

George Faller [00:01:27]:

Listen and let’s change some relationships.

Laurie Watson [00:01:30]:

Hey, don’t forget to check out Uberlube.com with the coupon Foreplay. It really helps us to support the podcast and keep delivering free content. Thanks so much. I think if we can figure out our own need or we can figure out our partner’s need, we can change the cycle. And this is what we’re talking about. I was thinking about a couple this week that I’m working with and who I just absolutely love, and they’re so at loggerheads with their cycle and even helping them isolate what they do need, what the one needs to feel safe and what the other needs to feel appreciated for their sexual push. It’s like such a tough cycle. Help me with the withdrawal. What is the withdrawal needing in general? And then maybe I can think about it specifically.

George Faller [00:02:22]:

I want to start with the timing.

Laurie Watson [00:02:25]:

Because you had me talk and then you changed me back to OK, go ahead.

George Faller [00:02:32]:

We do this all the time. Laurie right. We got to get into attunement. You want to go one direction? I pivot us a little vice versa. It’s a dance and it’s all how we learn from each other. But I think most people go too quickly to what do we need? And you haven’t given the space for the need to become clear. What do I mean by that? I think the order really matters.

Laurie Watson [00:02:57]:

Okay, tell me about the order.

George Faller [00:03:01]:

There are three layers to this. The first layer you have to start with is when the need is not met. People protect themselves, right? If you’re not going to meet my need, then I’m going to protest. I’m going to go away. You have to meet people in their protection. That’s like the outside shell, that if you ask somebody what they need and they’re stuck in their protection, they can’t access it. What I need you to do is stop being so annoying. I need you to engage more. I need you to do this. It’s focused on the other person because we’re locked in our protection. The second layers underneath that protection is where the fears are, the hurts. When our needs are not getting met, it’s like it makes us feel not wanted, rejected, like we’re failing, discouraged, hopeless, helpless. Those negative emotions are just information. It’s letting us know what the vulnerability is. You actually got to make that vulnerability come online if you’re going to get to the need. Because embedded in every emotion not only tells us the problem, it feels like I’m failing. Embedded in that is the solution. I want to be successful. It feels like I’m being rejected. That’s the fear. I want to be chosen. So you got to get people into that vulnerability to get to the longing.

Laurie Watson [00:04:20]:

Okay.

George Faller [00:04:20]:

The beautiful thing about EFT, it has these three layers. You can see it in step three. Stage one, you’re trying to get people to touch this vulnerability, but they can’t stay in it. They keep leaving. They keep leaving. So we work with that. We work with their blocks. They’re leaving. They make jokes. They do all these strategies as we go deeper. Stage two, step five. They can actually sit in the fear and the hurt and start talking about it. And a lot of times the partner can respond, which is beautiful. It’s how they start to create a positive cycle. But then the last step last step, last step.

Laurie Watson [00:04:54]:

Okay.

George Faller [00:04:54]:

Step seven is you bring them into that place of pain and vulnerability, and from that place, they could actually try to find words for what they need. It’s never really been an option with the negative cycle, so they usually don’t know. But when you get them to listen to their own bodies, they will start telling you the very thing that they need. And we’re going to talk about that.

Laurie Watson [00:05:15]:

Okay? You got to help me make this practical for me and my pea brain. This today. So I’m the sexual withdrawal. Let’s pretend that that’s a stretch. I’m the sexual withdrawal. And you’re too much, right? You’re critical. You’re always too much. I just feel like you shut down because you send me the message. I’m not a very good sexual partner.

George Faller [00:05:46]:

Right?

Laurie Watson [00:05:47]:

Okay. And then my protection is to do what? To withdraw? To feel. I feel criticized. I feel bad. I go away.

George Faller [00:06:00]:

Going away from those feelings, it gets you away from feeling rejected. If you don’t put yourself in those circumstances, you won’t have to feel so bad. There’s protection and not engaging.

Laurie Watson [00:06:14]:

Okay, so I don’t want to have sex with you. I don’t want to do the things you want to do. All of those things I block out. And I think the other thing I do as a sexual withdrawal is this is what I see. And I know this is not conscious. I do know this about you. And I think what is troubling is that the partner thinks it is conscious. But as a sexual withdraw, I withdraw from my own sexuality. I withdraw from my own fantasies, my own desire. Sometimes I even withdraw from my own orgasm and arousal. I can’t go there. So I’m pulling way back. And then what’s the third step? What’s the third part? Where am I feeling?

George Faller [00:07:02]:

Well, you got to go to those places. If you’re still avoiding, you’re still in the first step of protecting yourself. The second layer is to get you into that place of facing the fears of that. Like, if you didn’t go away, what would you feel? Inadequate. Not enough. Broken, defective. You got to actually get you to go there before you can get that final step of asking, what do you need in that place of brokenness?

Laurie Watson [00:07:27]:

Okay. Distinguish for me between the way I withdraw in my heart and the way I withdraw in my body, because I do withdraw in my body as well. Can you help me figure out how staying in my body is going to help?

George Faller [00:07:46]:

Well, listening to your body, that’s where these emotional signals lie. So if you’re disconnected from your body, it’s hard to come up with new moves. Right. So if we can get you to name where you feel that right before you go away, you’re feeling something that makes you want to go away. There’s a threat that your body’s picking up that you want to navigate by moving away. Where do you feel that threat? You feel that in your stomach? That’s where you start to get clear on. Well, if yeah, my stomach is feeling like I’m bad, I’m not enough, I’m short, I’m going to disappoint. I’m nervous. Right. Our body is going to tell us the problem if we listen to it long enough. It’s also going to tell us the solution. And that’s really what we’re trying to talk about today. What do you need? Withdrawals are going to need different things, so let me just throw some things out there. You be the withdrawal and see how some of this lands. All right. So depending on where you are with your partner in the process, if you’re a withdrawal who doesn’t want to have sex, what is it that you would need is to be told, like, it’s okay to not want to have sex if you’re not in a mood. It’s a healthy thing to not want to have sex. You’re not broken or defective. If you’re in a place where the negative cycle is too strong, there’s too much distance there’s too much insecurity. There’s not enough desire to access because of the negativity. Like, not wanting to have sex is a healthy way of navigating this space. If you’re a witcher, what would that like to hear from your partner? Like, it’s healthy to not want to have sex. It’s not you as the problem. It’s the cycle. There’s something happening between us that’s creating this distance. It’s not your problem. It’s our problem.

Laurie Watson [00:09:31]:

I mean, that would be amazing to hear that something healthy about me not wanting sex. Because if I want sex, I’m at such risk. I’m so vulnerable. I feel the rejection so keenly in my body. As an aside, I will say that sexual withdrawals often have very sensitive bodies. Like, they feel rejection. They also feel sexual pleasure in a way that is very keen, sometimes more intense than we can imagine. And that’s partly why they shut down. So anyway, just wanted to throw that out there.

George Faller [00:10:09]:

Yeah, it’s a good point. And oftentimes the withdrawal is blamed for their not wanting to have sex. And they believe it. When you could give them permission for this is a byproduct of the cycle in a distance. It takes the blame off of them to tell them it’s actually healthy to not want to have sex if you’re not in a mood. Like, that empowers them. Right. It takes a lot of the pressure off. The second thing is when they’re struggling during sex, like, say, all right, they have a willingness, they’re willing to try, and maybe it’s not coming online quick enough for them. They’re struggling. If they start to feel like they’re failing or they’re not desirous enough, that’s where they’re going to need the reassurance of their partner the most to be able for their partner to acknowledge their struggle and to try to meet them there. If you’re a witch. Roy, what are you thinking about? Some of these needs, like the need to be understood as trying your best. The need to be accepted. Even if you come up a bit short. The need to be appreciated, to be kind of told it’s going to be okay, is a big one with a lot of withdrawals. Like, just reassure me. Say, it’s okay if we struggle right now, we’ll try again tomorrow. This is not going to be a big deal. We’re going to figure this out. To believe in that witcher, to be told that you’d love them even if they fail and they come up short, that some witchcraft really appreciate not even having words, just the physicality, like, to hold them, that’s that reassurance. That’s so often the key to the need in a place of failure. The opposite of failure is being told you’re getting it right. That’s what we’re aiming towards. But if you’re not there yet, to be told I love you even if you don’t get it right, that’s the ultimate in safety.

Laurie Watson [00:11:59]:

Okay, I think you made a point here that is important. There’s two places that I need to be seen and to be reassured. One, if I don’t want to have sex. If I tell you I don’t want to have sex when my body isn’t online, when I don’t want to, that’s healthy. It’s healthy to represent myself. We don’t want anybody having sex when they don’t want to. I mean, I think willingness can turn to wanting later, but if you’re not willing, it’s like we don’t want you to have sex. That’s crazy making, right? Your body belongs to you, but also in the midst of it if I’m willing and say I’m not getting aroused and now I’m starting to go through stuff, right? If my body isn’t working the way I expect it to or the way I think you want it to or maybe you’re acting perfunctory, it’s like, okay, keep going. It could turn me off. It’s like I get the message that you’re not very excited because my body’s not responding the way you think it is or whatever. I get that sense of I’m no good. And so then I just want to stop. And that’s the place where you’re going.

George Faller [00:13:12]:

To need the reassurance in those moments when deep inside I feel like I’m failing. I’m not enough. I’m less than you don’t desire me. I need that’s where you’re going to need the reassurance, the message that it’s okay. The message that you’re loved even in this place of struggle. This is actually the most tender moment we have as humans. This is where we need love the most. And this is where withdrawals are never getting it. This is where they’re going away. So if they could find their words in this place, it changes the game. The last thing a witch rower is going to need before a break and we switch to pursuers is when they get it right. Celebrate it. It’s not the time to remind of other things or maybe next time it’s like, yes, we just did it. Like tell them good job. Tell them like, that was amazing. Tell them like you felt so super connected to them. Keep it focused on the success pursuers always want to introduce, that was nice, but maybe next time we could try this. And that is not the time when they are nailing it. Stay in that sweet spot.

Laurie Watson [00:14:15]:

I think that’s the number one message I would tell sexual pursuers. Yes. It’s like if as a sexual withdrawal, I did something that you wanted or we had a great time in bed or something, just say that was awesome and then be quiet. It’s like that’s what I want. I want to know that you’re satisfied. I think the problem comes right, is that they go beyond that. The sexual pursuer wants to capitalize on that moment, which makes sense, but don’t capitalize on that moment because it sends a message that it wasn’t enough. And I want to know it was enough. I want to know you’re satisfied. I want to know that I did great, that you think I’m sexy, that you think I’m attractive, that you think.

George Faller [00:14:59]:

It was awesome, that celebration is the completion of the positive cycle you’ve worked through, not wanting to the struggle to getting yourself to the place of enjoyment. Mission accomplished. Bam.

Laurie Watson [00:15:13]:

Okay, so celebration for the sexual withdrawal is, like, the magic.

George Faller [00:15:19]:

That’s the magic.

Laurie Watson [00:15:20]:

Okay?

George Faller [00:15:20]:

That’s what we’re getting to. Okay, let’s get to the magic of the pursuer.

Laurie Watson [00:15:24]:

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George Faller [00:17:48]:

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Laurie Watson [00:17:59]:

System today and help learn how to regulate emotion and share your deeper feelings with each other, the things that really matter. And we all want that. At this season.

George Faller [00:18:13]:

You have a lot to say about the pursuer, but again, the timing has to be right. You have to be able to work with the pursuer, with where they’re at, which is often the frustration and the pushing and the energy. It’s hard to get to the longings. If you ask them what they want, they are going to give you a long list of what their partner should do differently, which is not what we’re talking about when we talk about want. It’s more about what do you want in the places of vulnerability, what does your heart crave? Not focus on the behaviors of your partner, but what your heart needs. Those places.

Laurie Watson [00:18:45]:

Okay, so help me on this one, because I’m a sexual pursuer and what my heart cries is thought and variety. And it’s like, yes, I know my partner loves me. I know that those longings are kind of met, but really what I need is thrill. I need excitement. I need variety. I need my body to join with their body in a way that gives me life.

George Faller [00:19:13]:

Yeah, I want to do the same thing with Jorah. I’m looking at the want. The need changes at different points, like what you need when you’re not having sex versus when you’re struggling sex versus when you’re having great sex. Those needs might change. So let’s start off with when you’re not having sex. How do we honor the pursuer for fighting for the relationship, for initiating, for that anger that’s saying something needs to change. We’re not having sex as a couple. We’re only having sex every so once in a while or when we have sex. It’s kind of boring like that. Protest is their way of trying to create change. It’s a healthy thing to protest. I get the impact is not so great, but what would it be like for that withdrawal? For me, I’m the withdrawal telling you, I get why you fight for the relationship and why you protest. It’s healthy, it’s okay. What would that be like to hear.

Laurie Watson [00:20:12]:

Yeah, that’s good too. I like that. If you were telling me that you saw that my drive, my persistence, my pursuit, even my anger and criticism sometimes is about trying to expand this area of our connection, which is our physical intimacy, our sexuality, which is essential for us as a partner in partnership. Yeah, okay. At least you see my motive as good versus I’m all about sex or all I want is sex, or whatever.

George Faller [00:20:45]:

It’s befriending your anger. And I’m telling your anger like, this is not you. This is a byproduct of the cycle. Your anger is you’re trying to kind of create change or you don’t want to be angry. The cycle does that to you, and I get that, and I understand that. Right. That permission being told it’s okay that often really can soothe a pursuer. The second point is what is okay?

Laurie Watson [00:21:10]:

You got to do that, though. Practical. Are we going to go through yeah, do that practically. Say it again. What do you mean practically? I’m mad we haven’t had sex. How do you soothe me so I.

George Faller [00:21:24]:

Would be able to say two weeks.

Laurie Watson [00:21:25]:

Like, you don’t even notice it?

George Faller [00:21:28]:

Yeah. Again, I’m sorry that our dynamics sets up these conversations where you get frustrated, and then I get annoyed at your frustration, and I get that your frustration is just a part of you that’s saying things need to change. It’s beautiful that you want things to change. You really want to have more sex, and that’s a good thing. And I’m so sorry the cycle stops me often from seeing that. Right. But I’m seeing that right now. I know you don’t want to be angry, and I’m sorry I take your anger so personal because I get how beautiful it really is.

Laurie Watson [00:22:04]:

Okay.

George Faller [00:22:06]:

Did I have you at hello? But isn’t that nice when your partner is just giving you permission for how you protect yourself? Like, we’re not having sex right now, so you got to protect yourself, just like you try to protect me when I’m going away. It’s not because I don’t care. It’s just what I’m doing to protect myself. Your anger is trying to create change, I think when there’s a need in that to be acknowledged, to be understood, to be given permission. So when you give that to a pursuer, it usually can calm them down. But the more challenging one is when you’re struggling in the intimacy department. Maybe you’re trying to have sex, or you initiate sex and your partner is not in a mood, or your partner.

Laurie Watson [00:22:49]:

You want to be a little kinky.

George Faller [00:22:51]:

You try you try some nipple clamps or you try something different, which is just your way of introducing some novelty. We had fun in another episode. Again, trying to have some light around some of these topics. Right. But it’s very likely that you’re going to get rejected at some point during the act. You’re going to probably push for something your partner is uncomfortable with. Like, rejection is part of it. How do you listen to that rejection that feels like you’re more into it than your partner. You’re taking more risks than your partner. It doesn’t feel good. Like, how do we make sense of being rejected? What’s wrong with us? Maybe you’re not attracted to me anymore. Maybe I put on weight. I mean, there’s so many things that could play in this vulnerable place, and that’s where the beautiful opportunity lies. This is where we need love the most. So the opposite of rejection, if we listen to the rejection, this is where the longings come in. The wants. That’s why we need the vulnerability to be online. If my fear is rejection, what am I looking for? For you to show me. You want me. You desire me. You see me. You choose me. You believe in me. You’re going to initiate. You’re going to take some kind of action. That’s what my heart longs for in these spaces. Right. So we’re going to try to help pursuers, put words like, my fear is that you don’t find me attractive anymore. Wait.

Laurie Watson [00:24:15]:

Yeah. Wait. We’re also helping. We’re trying to comfort them, aren’t we?

George Faller [00:24:20]:

Yeah. That reassurance of saying, I still am attracted to you. But a lot of times that’s what withdrawals want to do. They want to calm the emotion, but they don’t take that real next step, which is showing energy, showing engagement. That is the longing. The fear needs reassurance, but the longing needs action.

Laurie Watson [00:24:40]:

Okay, so I need my partner eventually sexually to show up for me.

George Faller [00:24:45]:

Yes.

Laurie Watson [00:24:45]:

Right. That’s what you’re saying is if it’s in the critical part of the cycle where I just want sex and you pull away, that’s one thing, but then deeper down, I eventually need you to come toward me. I need you to be sexual. I need you to engage. Right?

George Faller [00:25:02]:

Yeah.

Laurie Watson [00:25:04]:

Yes.

George Faller [00:25:05]:

And I think that’s that step that really takes it to the next level. So maybe I feel rejected, and I say, right now I’m feeling rejected because it seems like you’re really not into it. And you might reassure me and say, you know what? I’m sorry you feel that way. I do love you. I know my inhibitions from kind of the cycle of what happens get in the way. But you know what? What do you need me to do? I’ll get on top. How is this is this like that engagement shows that pursuer, that this place matters, that you’re willing to stretch yourself. Right. And that brings up your own blocks, and we all work with that. But for the partner to see the health and along, and that says you need more active wanting, expressing that desire. You choose me. You see me, you need me. That is the stuff that really fills a pursuer up.

Laurie Watson [00:25:59]:

Oh, yeah. And I think this is where therapists get stuck, for sure. It’s like, how can I get somebody who doesn’t want sex, who isn’t that interested to want to desire? But there’s so many ways I think we can act sometimes and stretch ourselves, like you said, to, I don’t know, develop inside the eroticism to change, to start to fantasize about sex. I mean, there are ways that we can enter sexuality more fully, even if in the past we haven’t done that. And I think that’s the withdrawal coming forward, it’s like, okay, look at this hasn’t been important to me for a million reasons, but it is important to us and because it’s important to us. And for you to feel me come forward in this. I’m going to buy some books, I’m going to go to a sex therapist, I’m going to get on top, I’m going to wear some lingerie, I’m going to buy those damn nipple claps.

George Faller [00:27:01]:

And that’s why the last part of it is often the easiest to give success to the pursuer. But often it never happens. Like after sex and it works and it’s great and you have a great time together. That’s where you really do want to take the moment to celebrate that, be able to say to that pursuer, like, thank you, you just rocked my world. I mean, that was like the best thing I think I’ve ever experienced. And you initiated that, you pushed for that and I am so glad you did that. What do you think that sounds like from pursuer?

Laurie Watson [00:27:34]:

That sounds great, right? A pursuer wants to know that they are all that.

George Faller [00:27:39]:

It’s the easiest way to do it afterwards, too. To be able to say instead of just rolling over, saying goodnight, to be able to say like, dan, that was good, wasn’t it?

Laurie Watson [00:27:48]:

Yeah. Can you say it again in the morning, too?

George Faller [00:27:52]:

Wouldn’t that be nice? That’s the initiation, wake up in the morning and say, you know what, I’m a little sore, but that was so amazing. These are the things that just make a pursuer skip throughout the day. Why not give these easy victories that just kind of remind them, remember, the fear is rejection. The antidote to that is telling them how amazing they are and you choose them. After sex is some of the easiest times for a partner to meet that need.

Laurie Watson [00:28:19]:

And I think there’s relief if the withdrawing partner is initiating conversation, compliments or just remembering out loud together about how great it was last night. You don’t have to push, you don’t have to keep going. It’s like you don’t have to keep reminding them because they have it now in their heart.

George Faller [00:28:41]:

And this is where when we do the great sex weekends, this is often the hardest conversation for couples to have. Like in these places. If I listen to my fears, what do I need? And we’re expecting most of you to not know. It’s never really an option. The negative cycle never makes it safe, right? Your partner is the most scary when you need them the most. So we never really can talk about this. So when we start to really understand and befriend each other’s protections and start to calm things down, we open up the space to really listen to our vulnerability. It’s okay not to know. But even if you’re paying attention to that, you are on the road to figuring it out. And there is nothing more powerful than knowing what you need at your most vulnerable places. And when you could ask for it and get it, you have the best relationship on this planet.

Laurie Watson [00:29:29]:

I love that. I’m going to bring out the. Tambourine, you were preaching it, man. Good job. Good job.

George Faller [00:29:36]:

We have that simple saying in EFT no risky, no getty. Right? It’s hard to risk it. We might not know what we want. Our partner might not know how to respond. But if you never ask, you’re never going to get it. And when you get what you need in these places, it really changes the game. And that’s my hope for all you listeners out there that you’re going to do the work. Come to one of our retreats. Read a book, listen to the podcast. But deep down, every vulnerability has a longing. If you sit in it long enough, your body will tell you what it needs to feel safer, calmer, relaxed, happy, positive. Listen to your body, ask for what you need, and you’ll thank us tomorrow.

Laurie Watson [00:30:23]:

Thanks for listening.

George Faller [00:30:25]:

Keep it hot, y’all.

Laurie Watson [00:30:26]:

Okay, so tell us about your cutting edge training that you’re doing on success and vulnerability.

George Faller [00:30:32]:

Laurie we just keep pushing it. Coming up with a new module on the playbook of a pursuer playbook of a witcher. Really practical, moment by moment moves of what a therapist can use. We’re so focused on what’s happening in session enough, there’s talk about theories and these global things. I think most therapists are looking for, what do I do in this moment? Give me a tool. George so that’s what we’re trying to do.

Laurie Watson [00:30:58]:

That’s awesome. I am so glad you guys are doing this work. I think it helps us be organized to see you do it. You do demos, you do explanations. Teaching. It really is interactive, and I think that so many trainings that we sit through don’t give us an opportunity for that. So what you’re doing is really important.

George Faller [00:31:17]:

No, we try to emphasize the teach it, show it, do it model of learning. You need to have some ideas, so we try to teach those, and then we try to show what it looks like implementing those ideas. But most importantly, you now got to practice it. That’s how they become yours. And that’s what we want our listeners and watchers to do, is become their own moves.

Laurie Watson [00:31:36]:

Find George and his [email protected].

George Faller [00:31:41]:

Call in your questions to the Foreplay Question voicemail dial eight three three, my. Foreplay. That’s eight, three, three, my. The number four play, and we’ll use the questions for our mailbag episodes. All content is for entertainment purposes only and should not be considered as a substitute for therapy by a licensed clinician or as medical advice from a doctor. This podcast is copyrighted by Foreplay Media.

Laurie Watson [00:32:06]:

Hey, guys. I’m Natalie Pouche, and I’m the host of your new favorite podcast, humble and Hungry. It’s time to grab your cheese board and your favorite bottle of wine because we’re having a girls night, and we’re about to embark on a whole new journey as we juggle motherhood and blindly navigating through our 30s. We’re talking life, drama, dating, and everything in between. I recommend listening to Humble and Hungry on the Iheart App on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.