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Joe Davis – Announcer [00:00:28]:

The following content is not suitable for children.

Laurie Watson [00:00:33]:

Welcome to foreplay sex therapy. I’m Dr. Laurie Watson, your sex therapist.

George Faller [00:00:37]:

And I’m George Faller, your couples therapist.

Laurie Watson [00:00:40]:

We are here to talk about sex.

George Faller [00:00:42]:

Our mission is to help couples talk about sex in ways that incorporate their body, their mind, and their hearts, and.

Laurie Watson [00:00:50]:

We have a little bit of fun doing it right.

George Faller [00:00:52]:

G listen and let’s change some relationships.

Laurie Watson [00:00:56]:

George there’s stages in resolving our sexual issues, and the first stage is we’ve got to de escalate, and we’ve got to know at that point, are we ready to move on to the stage two, or are we ready to really start digging in and solving the problem? The first thing we’ve got to do is stop this vicious cycle of fighting and splitting apart all the time. So we want to help people learn. When are you de escalated? When is the fight damped down enough that you can actually hear each other and move to the next phase where you can resolve things? Is that right?

George Faller [00:01:33]:

That’s right. We’ve talked a lot about the emotional cycle and couples understanding who’s the person pushing for connection and who’s the person who’s trying to avoid fighting and criticism. How do they start to understand their cycle and more importantly, uniting against it? You got to unite against a negative cycle to then work towards new moves and creating a positive cycle. So today, we want to do that around the sexual cycle to really encourage people to not only understand their moves, who pushes who’s the one who goes away, but to really get a felt sense of the good reasons people protect themselves the way they do. So today we’ll talk about I’ll be the sexual witcher, and Laurie will be the sexual pursuer.

Laurie Watson [00:02:20]:

Okay.

George Faller [00:02:20]:

And we understand our cycle, right. That you push for sex, and when you push for sex, I’m not in a mood. I don’t want to kind of get into a fight, so I just say I’m not interested. And when I’m not interested, you really get frustrated with me and tell me, this is what I always do. I’m never interested. And you pile on complaints and criticisms, which just makes me want to disengage more, and we’re stuck. So we cognitively understand what both of us do the predominant amount of times. Those are our moves that we go to.

Laurie Watson [00:02:54]:

Yeah.

George Faller [00:02:54]:

But as therapists, there’s a difference between understanding your couple I mean, understanding your cycle and having a real feeling for can you take the other person’s position in defenses less personally. I know when a couple can do that, each partner can really get the other person’s position. That couple is really uniting against that negative. I mean, I understand why I, as a withdrawal, go away, and I think Laurie understands why she pushes, but does she really get why I go away? And do I really get why she pushes and how we’re going to practice know we’re always looking for evidence in session. As therapists, this is what I call the test for de escalation. Can you turn to your partner and can you share, give permission for how that partner protects himself? When couples can do this, they actually not only understand the cycle, they’ve actually united against the cycle. So let’s start off Laurie. I’ll be the right. I want to be able to understand why I do what I do, but then I want to really. So that’s the first thing. Do I understand my move? Two. Do I understand? Laurie’s, move. I do. Great. Three. Can I tell Laurie she has good reasons for doing what she’s doing? Given permission for the other person’s protection is the sign of a couple that really gets their cycle. So that’s going to be our big takeaway in this. What do you think?

Laurie Watson [00:04:25]:

I want to see it happen.

George Faller [00:04:27]:

All right. She wants to test it.

Laurie Watson [00:04:29]:

I want to test it.

George Faller [00:04:31]:

So as a withdrawal, I think I get why I go away. I go away not because I don’t care. I go away because I just don’t want to make things worse. If I’m not in a mood, I feel guilty. She gets frustrated. I just don’t want to put myself in that situation. So if I just go to bed early or I read a book or if I have a headache, whatever happens, that just gives me space. It gives me a sense of safety from stopping this thing from getting worse. So I think that’s why I go away. Okay, so that’s one, I get my move. Two. Do I get Laurie’s? Move. Yeah. I think I don’t like her anger and her criticism, but I’m starting to understand that kind of criticism is actually her fighting for something different. It’s her hope, actually, that she can have sex and connection and more. It’s really healthy, what’s driving it. What she wants is good. It’s what I want too, and she’s acting on that. She’s trying to fight for it. I often get so defensive. I can’t see the hope and the goodness in kind of what she’s doing. So I’m really starting to see that now. So that’s two, I get her move. Here’s the test. Three is now I have to tell her that I get her move. That’s what we call an enactment. I have to share it with Laurie again. Logically, this should be easy, but you have to recognize I hate this move in Laurie. It has caused me so much pain. The criticism that my brain has no practice, it has no reps in befriending this. I’m always fighting this message in her. So although I might understand it, to actually turn towards her and say, I get you and why you’re doing it differently, that’s probably going to be a hard thing for my brain to do. And a lot of times in this moment, the person can’t do it right. They’re like, well, I just wish you wouldn’t be so angry. And they go right back into their old moves. So if you find yourself doing that, that’s normal. It takes practice to get to the place where you actually do take the person’s moves less personally. You still want it to change, but you befriend it instead of fighting it all the time.

Laurie Watson [00:06:46]:

I want to help people here because what you said, I just don’t want them to miss it. That they’re probably the first few attempts at this is going to result in the cycle.

George Faller [00:06:56]:

Yes.

Laurie Watson [00:06:57]:

I mean, you’re going to try this, it’s going to go skiwabbed and you’re going to be in a fight and there’s going to be a disconnection. And we hate that, but we know that that’s true, that it’s just micro attempts at trying to do it better, trying to do it a little bit different. Eventually they’re going to get to the point where they can do the test. They’re going to be de escalated. They’re going to be able to tell each other, I understand why you do your move, but in the beginning, yeah, you’re going to do this 30 times and fail, but eventually you’re going to.

George Faller [00:07:30]:

Get it and think of the logic of it. And this is the difference between a top down understanding and a bottom up body. Somatic experience of doing it differently, my brain has had so many thousands of reps of being threatened by her anger for me to actually say, I understand your anger differently, that it’s your hope. My body is afraid that if I give her permission for that, she’s just going to do more of it. It’s so counterintuitive to want to befriend this other move that has been so threatened for you for so many years. Right? So again, it’s getting yourself the practice to be able to kind of see the other person in a clearer light. And that’s the gift in this conversation. You could actually see this person is just protecting themselves. They’re not trying to make your life miserable. This is just what happens when they’re threatened to. So this is what it might sound like. So, Laurie, I spent so many years kind of resenting your anger and feeling like it was just random and you’re just picking on know, and I really didn’t understand, but I’m starting to understand now that that anger, it’s like you don’t want to be angry, but to say nothing at all means nothing’s going to change. It would actually make you feel more discouraged. So your anger, your criticism, you don’t want to do it. It’s like it’s your hope. Maybe you can reach me, maybe you can point out the problem. So I will address it with you. It’s a call for us to do something together. It’s actually your fight for connection, and I never really saw that. So I’m really starting to get that how you’re kind of pushing, and it’s something really beautiful. I want to figure out how we can do it differently so it doesn’t feel so bad on my end. But I really get for you how your criticism is your hope that we could have a better sex life.

Laurie Watson [00:09:24]:

Obviously that feels better to the pursuer who is always angry, to at least have the motive of their anger seen as wanting a better sex life, something that brings connection and intimacy and joy and pleasure to the coupleship. So that’s a good thing. That’s better than the withdrawal.

George Faller [00:09:44]:

Well, how did that feel to be actually seen that way?

Laurie Watson [00:09:48]:

Yeah, it felt much better.

George Faller [00:09:50]:

And we want to celebrate that, that if you feel more seen, you feel better, you feel like I’m getting you in a different way, then you could let me know that because that’s going to tell me what?

Laurie Watson [00:10:02]:

That you were successful in sharing that with me. Right. Which adds to the positive cycle. Okay. So I’ll skip the narrative for now and respond to you. I would say to my partner, it’s like, yeah, I appreciate you holding steady here. First of all, you’re not angry with me in return, which feels a lot better than what happens usually between us. And I do feel like you’re stretching yourself to see that I want something good for us, not just for me, and that it’s not all about telling you you’re not good enough. But my anger. And the reason I get so frustrated is because I see hope of what we could have together. And so, yeah, I keep pushing and keep initiating, and sometimes I get really hurt and that’s like then sometimes I defend myself from that hurt feeling by being mad at you. And I think you’re seeing that this is part of our stuff, part of our cycle.

George Faller [00:11:03]:

I like seeing you better.

Laurie Watson [00:11:06]:

Thank you.

George Faller [00:11:07]:

And again, you can see what’s happening with Laurie and I is we’re connecting around something we always miss. Each could. This is a couple that really is getting their right. They’re ready for the new moves. They’re in a much calmer place. It’s a clear marker for them and for the therapist who’s working with them that they don’t just understand it cognitively. Their hearts have gotten practice and reaching to the other person in a very different way around the cycle. I have to befriend her criticism.

Laurie Watson [00:11:40]:

And I think one of the things that this takes developmentally is our ability to stand a little bit aside from our emotional reaction and watch it it’s like, oh, this is what’s happening. And my ability to do that takes a lot of practice, takes some maturity, some belief in the goodness of my partner, like, even when I can’t see it, believing that there’s something good in them coming. For me, it really is this move that I step out of the fray for just a minute and I’m watching it, and I’m like a therapist. I’m observing this repetitive pattern, and then I have just the tiniest bit of space that allows me to think about it and therefore maybe be able to change.

George Faller [00:12:27]:

It beautiful. That’s what Sue Johnson would always say. Couples in protective places are trying to manage the pain of the disconnection while still searching for closeness. That’s all the protection is trying to do, is trying to fight. It knows something’s wrong, something’s missing, it’s not sure how to do. And both people are stuck in that place in a negative cycle. So let’s come back and let’s see how the sexual pursuer can reach out with these same three moves that can show them and all of us listening therapists out there that this couple really gets their cycle.

Laurie Watson [00:13:10]:

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George Faller [00:14:30]:

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Laurie Watson [00:14:44]:

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George Faller [00:15:09]:

Hey, we love Uber Lube. And thank you, listeners, for supporting Uber. Lubeb who supports us?

Laurie Watson [00:15:14]:

Uberlube.com with the code foreplay.

George Faller [00:15:21]:

All right, Laurie, so this test that the couple really gets their cycle. Now it’s the pursuer’s turn. Does the pursuer get the can they do these three moves? Can you kind of get why you do what you do? Do you get why I do what I do? And can you tell me you get what I do? That’s the real test. It’s the sharing. It’s an opportunity for this couple to bond around the cycle instead of fighting over it all the time.

Laurie Watson [00:15:51]:

Okay, so now I’m the pursuer trying to come to you in a deescalated way, and we’re testing to see if this conversation will hold, because once we’re deescalated, we really are going to be better at problem solving and getting out of this thing, right? This looping, looping, looping problem. Okay, so you know what, George? I know I come to you angry a lot, want to talk about something, and I’m angry. I think for me, I keep pushing for more connection with you and wanting that, and I know that’s a good thing. I know we’ll feel better. I know that our lives will be better, but I know I come about it over time. When I don’t seem to reach you over time, then I’ll get angry with you. And I know that does a bad thing to you, because as soon as my emotions go up, I get it. You want to go away. And when you go away, it’s just automated. This is you shutting down. It’s how you learn in your family that this is how you kept safe as a boy. Just go to your room, get out of the tension at home, protecting yourself, avoiding that conflict, because things could have blown up. So I know that this is your nature, almost like something that tells you, this is how I get safe. And I think for me, the backing up, all it felt like was that you didn’t care about this important part of our life that probably ultimately, I felt like you didn’t care about me. But I do know that this is just something that your body is telling you to do. This is getting safe is actually a better path for us. We’ll be rational. We’ll be able to talk about things if we keep it cool and calm. And so it’s not necessarily that you don’t care about me. It’s just your move here is to withdraw. And sometimes maybe your move is to get angry with me, but it’s really just pushing me back because maybe you feel hopeless or something, too, about solving it, and so you’re just kind of shutting down. I know that you’ve told me enough that it’s not because you don’t care, but it’s that you feel something inside, and you’re maybe hopeless about how to fix it or whatever, so you’re just pulling back. Am I getting what goes on for you? Is this true for you?

George Faller [00:18:16]:

Yeah. I appreciate you trying to see it differently. It feels like you’re understanding me a little bit better when you say it’s not because I don’t care, because I do care so much, it just doesn’t seem like it’s going to make anything better. And when I go away, there is this sense of like, all right, at least I won’t say the wrong thing. It’s not going to get worse. I’m not going to hear more bad things. There’s something about taking space that calms my nervous system down. I can think more clearly. I can reset. So when you know it’s not because I don’t care, it feels safer. It feels like, yes, Laurie, you’re getting me. That’s my experience. That’s my truth. I know it doesn’t work for you. I know we’re working on changing that, but that is why I do it.

Laurie Watson [00:19:04]:

So does it feel a little better when I say it?

George Faller [00:19:06]:

Truly, it does. It feels like you really get me. And you don’t see me as this failing jerk. You see me as someone who’s just surviving. And it feels really good right now. It feels like I don’t want to go away. I feel like you’re getting me. You’re understanding me. It feels really good that you’re understanding me.

Laurie Watson [00:19:26]:

Nice. Okay, that’s good. I’m glad. And now this couple kind of with some good feelings. I wouldn’t suggest to them that they dig in right now and start to solve it. I would say rest here for a little bit. You did a good thing. This is a step. This is a landing place to just say, okay, we are de escalated. That’s part of the process. This is good. The more we trust each other, that the reasons I get angry, the reasons he pulls away that we trust that behind it is just automated good survival strategies, that it has a good intent, his to keep things calm, mine to reach for connection. When we see that good intent, we become less defensive with each other and we can hear each other a little bit better.

George Faller [00:20:18]:

Exactly. This actually resources a couple when they’re in a place like this where they get their cycle and they could give each other permission for their survival and protection, that feels good for both of them. It’s in this place of feeling good and more secure and closer together that we’re more resourced to then take more vulnerable risks and go into these places of failure and rejection. And this is where the new moves are going to come. Asking for help in the places right before you protect yourself. There’s a reason I’m going away. I feel like I’m failing. There’s a reason Laurie’s getting frustrated because she’s feeling rejected. There’s some real vulnerability underneath that that there’s no safety to talk about with a negative cycle. But once you disarm it, once you help a couple unite against it, it gives you the resourcing that they need for the new moves. And again, when you rush a couple into these new moves too quickly, where they don’t have a stable unification against the cycle, it’s why it doesn’t stick. And they go back to these defensive moves because they really don’t know it nice. And not only does it resource a couple to go deeper, it also what we’re hoping is both people hold on to it and they could be more proactive to protect each other throughout the week. Right. We know each other’s triggers. I know Laurie, when she starts to feel kind of rejected, she’s going to get angry. I know when I go away, I reject her. So even if I’m going to go away before I go away, wouldn’t it help now that I understand this, to say, hey, Lori, again, I’m going away right now, I’m feeling a little overwhelmed and I want to feel safe. I know that often lands really bad to you that I don’t care. I really do care. I want to protect you from feeling bad. I promise we’ll come back in a half hour and we can talk about this, okay? How would that be for you, Laurie?

Laurie Watson [00:22:08]:

That would be great if you did that again.

George Faller [00:22:12]:

I know lori’s trigger. I know what my move does to her. I want to protect her. How could you protect me, Lori?

Laurie Watson [00:22:20]:

Well, I certainly know that you get triggered by anger and that that pushes you. So really modulating my tone coming in soft, trying to tell you. It’s like, I think first identifying that my actions push you away and seeing that mitigates the way I am going to act with you. So I want to kind of predict like, I know that when we talk about this, maybe I trigger you and that shows you I’m aware of my actions that are going to start the cycle.

George Faller [00:22:59]:

Awesome.

Laurie Watson [00:23:00]:

Yeah, I think that awareness, even if I can’t do it, at least you know, I’m seeing the pattern.

George Faller [00:23:10]:

Yes. And even if you can’t catch it, we’re not perfect. The cycle always comes back to negative cycle, but it makes it a lot easier to repair, you know, Lori reaches out to be intimate and I say, sorry, I’m not in a mood. And I just roll over and I go to bed the next day for me to come back and say, hey, Lori, I’m sorry, I was just so tired and I just went to my old move just to feel safe. But I just left you alone to hang with. I just because I was in a mood doesn’t mean I’m not attracted to you and I don’t want to have sex. And I thought a lot about it. I really want to put aside some time on Friday night so we could have know I’m really excited about that. How would that be for you, Laurie?

Laurie Watson [00:23:56]:

That would be better than just rolling over. For sure.

George Faller [00:24:00]:

And that’s the beauty of knowing each other’s move. Even if I have to take safety and go away, I still could give my partner what they’re looking for, which is a commitment to come back, because that’s what often doesn’t happen with the disengagement. I go away and I never come back. I never initiate, I’m never proactive. I always put the burden on Lori to have to bring this stuff up. And then I wonder why she feels frustrated because she has to be the one bringing it up all the time. I mean, that’s the crazy making thing of a negative cycle. We set the other person up for their protection and then blame them when they do it, right. So we want to free you. All liberate listeners out there listening. We can step out of this negative cycle. It’s the same moves over and over again. You really got to get good at mastering your move and mastering your partner’s move and learning to speak to it.

Laurie Watson [00:24:48]:

And what might I say the next morning that would help?

George Faller [00:24:52]:

I don’t know. What would you say? You got to own your anger and kind of what it does to me.

Laurie Watson [00:24:57]:

Yeah. So last night when you rolled over and I kind of knew you were tired anyway, but I was just needing you, and I guess I was just needing sex. And so I sat there, I was really angry because that’s easier for me to feel than the rejection that I often feel. And going through that bad thing of my despair, is this ever going to be different? Are you ever going to initiate all of those thoughts just whirl in my head and I don’t sleep so well then, and I didn’t sleep well last night, and I guess in the morning I’m trying really hard to see that and accept what you’re saying, to take in that you saw my rejection. That’s why you’re coming back to me. And it’s the craziest thing. Sometimes when we get what we want, I want to throw a fit. All that fight in me is even sometimes bigger. It’s crazy. It’s like throwing water on a grease fire or something. But I’m really struggling because I know you’re trying. I know you’re trying the new move to notice what happens to me. I know you’re trying to come back to me so that I don’t feel so alone here. And frankly, that is initiation. I appreciate that. And I’ll just wait to see what the hell you do on Friday.

George Faller [00:26:24]:

No pressure.

Laurie Watson [00:26:25]:

No pressure.

George Faller [00:26:27]:

In the simplicity of what Laurie and I are trying to do is, if I’m going to go away, can I own the impact of that to Laurie and say, hey, I’m doing this to feel safe, not because I don’t know, but I don’t want to put this all on you. So I’m going to come back and let’s do this on Friday night. Right? And that’s enough for Laurie to hold on to for Laurie be able to recognize that it’s okay for me to not want to have sex. I’m not bad because of that, right? I could not want to have sex.

Laurie Watson [00:27:00]:

I didn’t say that.

George Faller [00:27:01]:

Well you got to get to a place of being able to say that, right, that it’s okay to say you don’t want to have sex as long as you’re going to come back and you want me to come back when I want to have sex. I mean that’s you protecting that part of me that doesn’t pathologize my going away. Just like I’m not trying to pathologize your anger. I see the hope in it. You see the health in my going away.

Laurie Watson [00:27:21]:

Okay, so what would have made it better is if I had said it’s okay but you didn’t want to have sex last night. You don’t have to sex when you’re tired. I definitely want you to have sex when you feel more engaged and feel more up for it because there’s something better between us when that happens. So yay, that’s good. And I appreciate you trying to make it a priority for our weekend. That’s good. And I’m just trying to dial down that place inside that often gets frustrated with you about this and try to see your good reasons for not wanting it and your recovery here in terms of telling me something that I do want to hear. That’s good.

George Faller [00:28:06]:

Thank you. That feels, again, like you’re getting me that this part of me is not bad because I’m not in a mood that as long as I could respect you and I could come back and when I want to and initiate and not put it all on you, it’s like we’re having a better balance as a couple with that. At the end of the day, it’s my job to protect her from being rejected because I’m an expert at rejecting her and going away. And Lori’s job is to protect me from the messages that I’m failing. I’m doing something wrong all the time because I don’t want to have sex, and to tell me messages that I’m doing a good job. I mean, that’s ultimately what’s going to start heading us in a direction of more safety and security.

Laurie Watson [00:28:47]:

Okay, thanks for listening.

George Faller [00:28:49]:

Keep it hot y’all. Quick shout out to Rebecca Jorgensen and her new exciting game to help couples.

Laurie Watson [00:28:57]:

You can find it on buildingalastingconnection.com the couple connection system but if you get to the website you’re going to find this. This is really a cool thing that we want you to take advantage of because it’s very reasonably priced and it basically takes principles of attachment and how you connect, how you can communicate better. It gives you communication starters, conversation starters. It is really a fun thing. We’re using it at our party this weekend for our therapists. We’re going to introduce it to them. It is also a physical thing because it has a mat that. You kind of walk around and do these exercises with the mat. Assists you to kind of stay focused with each other and grounded because you’re facing each other and you’re moving through this, which we all know, right? Our bodies and our emotions are connected.

George Faller [00:29:46]:

So it’s beautiful, resource, good stuff, highly recommend it. Check it out.

Laurie Watson [00:29:50]:

That’s buildingalastingconnection.com couple connection system.

Joe Davis – Announcer [00:29:56]:

Call in your questions to the Foreplay Question voicemail dial eight three my foreplay that’s eight three three my. The number four play and we’ll use the questions for our mailbag episodes. All content is for entertainment purposes only and should not be considered as a substitute for therapy by a licensed clinician or as medical advice from a doctor. This podcast is copyrighted by Foreplay Media.

Speaker Ads [00:30:19]:

Stay hungry. Hey, guys. I’m Natalie Pouche, and I’m the host of your new favorite podcast, humble and Hungry. It’s time to grab your cheese board and your favorite bottle of wine because we’re having a girls night, and we’re about to embark on a whole new journey as we juggle motherhood and blindfully navigating through our 30s. We’re talking life, drama, dating, and everything in between. I recommend listening to Humble and Hungry on the Iheart app on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.