Joe Davis – Announcer [00:00:00]:

The following content is not suitable for children.

George Faller [00:00:02]:

The world is amazing. Toxic positivity. Here we go.

Laurie Watson [00:00:11]:

Welcome to foreplay sex therapy. I’m Dr. Lori Watson, your sex therapist.

George Faller [00:00:16]:

And I’m George Fowley, your couple’s therapist.

Laurie Watson [00:00:18]:

We are here to talk about sex.

George Faller [00:00:21]:

Our mission is to help couples talk about sex in ways that incorporate their body, their mind, and their hearts, and.

Laurie Watson [00:00:29]:

We have a little bit of fun doing it.

George Faller [00:00:30]:

Right, g. Listen and let’s change some relationships.

Laurie Watson [00:00:34]:

Hey, don’t forget to check out Uberlube.com with the coupon foreplay. It really helps us to support the podcast and keep delivering free content. Thanks so much. Are you a toxically positive person, George?

George Faller [00:00:47]:

I don’t know. I can be at times, maybe. What the hell do we even mean by that? Lori? Toxic positivity. Can there be anything toxic about positivity?

Laurie Watson [00:00:56]:

I know it’s such a good way of thinking and of being right, thinking of the positive, thinking about how life is good and happy and focusing on the good things. Why would that be ever toxic?

George Faller [00:01:10]:

So I agree. It’s never toxic. It’s always a good thing. Let’s finish this podcast. Good job, Eric.

Laurie Watson [00:01:19]:

All done. I think what we’re referring to, and I’m not exactly sure what the definition is out there, but when positivity is used as a block against intimacy, whether emotional intimacy or sexual intimacy, when people kind of focus on how good things are and it becomes this protection, you call it sometimes an anchor, which I think is a really smart term because you’re saying it’s an anchor against change toward connection and secure attachment. Right?

George Faller [00:01:52]:

Right. A lot of people use this as an avoidance to go into the fears, the pain, the hurt. They don’t want to access that, but that means they’re not going to access it with their partner. So it becomes a moment of disconnection between two people. That’s where toxic positivity becomes really counterproductive.

Laurie Watson [00:02:10]:

Right.

George Faller [00:02:10]:

But I want to back up a second know, I talked a lot about this in my book Sacred Stress. Kelly McConaughey, who’s a psychologist, does a lot of research on positive stress. There is something really healthy about trying to reframe something negative and seeing a challenge in it. The opportunity. We’re not saying it’s always bad. It’s critical if you want to live a successful life, to be able to kind of see an opportunity in a challenge. But what we’re talking about is an extreme of that, that people use this focus on the positive as an avoidance of the vulnerability. They’re not actually looking at the challenge. They’re doing what they can to get away from it.

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Laurie Watson [00:03:18]:

In my work I’ve seen people do this sexually and emotionally. So it’s like maybe emotionally it often does sound like a person saying why are you so negative? You only focus on the things that are wrong in our relationship and it’s usually a withdrawal strategy that is getting away from that criticism or that blaming or something. And same sexually it’s like, well we have such a good life and our children are young and we’re so busy. Why can’t we just celebrate that? Why do we have to get so down, bogged down by the fact that we don’t have sex very often or we don’t have the kind of sex that you are wanting. It’s like we have a great life and it’s like the person is avoiding maybe dealing with the pursuer’s feelings about wanting more connection either emotionally or sexually and how that might make the relationship even better.

George Faller [00:04:14]:

Exactly. The way I try to explain it to couples so they can see it a little bit more clearly is looking at both the intent and the impact. Right. The intent is healthy. The intent is, hey, why are we going to talk about Friday night’s fight? It’s only going to make things worse. Let’s focus on Saturday where we went to the dinner, we saw a great movie. The intent is healthy. It’s trying to kind of focus on what’s good in the relationship. The impact, however, is often very different because it tells the other person who’s in stress or hurt or wants to engage that not only am I not going to meet you there but there’s something wrong with you for wanting to go to that place that’s where it feels gaslighting to the partner. It’s like wait a second, I just want to talk to my partner about something hard so we can repair and now we’re not getting a chance to repair and it can usually escalate and feed this negative cycle.

Laurie Watson [00:05:05]:

Yeah, I have some really close friends who the husband is very positive and he’s very successful. It is a good strategy. For much of his life he focuses on the good. But sometimes she’ll tell me that actually she says sometimes she’ll tell me about a pattern that is very frequent where whatever she talks about, he kind of does the flip side. The children are acting up in this way and he’ll say, but we got such great kids. They’ve got good grades and they’re not in drugs. Or she’s like, I’m concerned about money. I know, but the raise is coming. Or I’m concerned about my parent who’s ailing. It’s like they’ve got support. You’ve got your brothers and sisters to help you and all of those things are true. All of the resources that they have and the things he’s pointing out are true. But what it leaves her with is this feeling of in my moment of distress and worry or a little bit of anxiety about this. I’m telling my partner, I’m spilling this out to my partner, and all I need him to do is validate. Like, yeah, I see why you’re worried about that, honey. She’s like, that step would mean the world to me. And then I can kind of see the sunny side of the street, but without that step, he feels a million miles away from me.

George Faller [00:06:26]:

Yeah. And to help that guy, there’s some work that has to be done. I think for so many men that go immediately to the positive, there’s no choice there. It just moves so quick. Their brain picks up really quick that there’s a threat. If conversation keeps going in a direction, it looks like it’s going towards the negative, towards right.

Laurie Watson [00:06:50]:

Wait, say a little bit more about that threat piece. Like, what do you think they’re feeling when they feel the threat?

George Faller [00:06:56]:

I mean, that’s the funny thing here. Most people think these positive people don’t want to do emotions. They’re actually really got fine tuned radars for picking up potential threat. Right. A conversation that’s going to go towards the negative. If my wife says, hey, you know what? I want to talk about something the other day, I don’t think we were on the same page. Immediately my brain is saying, this is potential threat. I’m going to get defensive. She’s going to get defensive. Like, we’re in a good place. Why do I want this to happen? If I can take this conversation in a different direction, I’m going to mitigate that threat. So it’s an immediate reading of threat and an action tendency that says, let me try this, because this is what I would do for myself anyway. I’m not doing this. This is how I deal with threat in my body. It’s a flight response towards something different to get out of it. It’s an anchor in the brain that the person has learned to go to that has rewarded that person time after time after time. It’s a successful way of dealing with this threat. So it’s actually a pull toward safety. The impact is something totally different. But what we’re trying to do with these withdrawals is to kind of slow down the process, to see the very good reasons they do it, and then to start also stretching them to see, can you see the impact, which is different than what you’re getting on the inside. And if you could start to slowly see that, you start to develop a choice. Isn’t that better, to go through life with a choice instead of letting this thing become automatic, which is so often what it is for most of these withdrawers.

Laurie Watson [00:08:31]:

Yeah, I love what you said, that there’s an, uhoh, inside that they do feel first that there is a little bit of a threat inside when their partner is going down that road, like, uhoh, we could be tanked. My partner could get really upset here. I may not know how to comfort them. My words in the past maybe haven’t comforted them. There could be all kinds of emotions that they are feeling and the strategy which creates success in other realms is just like, let’s move away from that, let’s think about the good things, the positive things. I do appreciate that you’re saying the person who has sort of toxic positivity or let’s just not even call it toxic, that’s their strategy actually has other emotions that might not be so comfortable. And so they’re using this to pull themselves through and they’re using this to pull their partner through. But like you said, the impact on the partner, on my girlfriend is she’s left. She’s left alone in her worries. She really wants to review with her partner this and a little bit of validation and kind of coming to her, which is kind of what I do on our walks together. I listen and validate and stay with her a little bit and then I watch her. She kind of climbs out of it herself because she’s been what we call in therapy resourced. She’s had somebody who’s gassed her up, somebody who’s cared about her in that painful moment without insisting that she be different and then voila the strategy that she employs. She’s a smart woman, she can figure things out and she just well, there’s this and then she kind of rebalances on the kids or the money or whatever it is.

George Faller [00:10:21]:

So this is how we’re going to blow your brains, everyone. I mean, this is the tough part of this work, but once you make it clear and you have a map, it becomes easier to climb that know for these withdrawers in that moment. What Laurie is describing beautifully is this pursuer is looking for co regulation. They’re struggling, they’re anxious and they’re looking for another nervous system to join them. Yes, unfortunately for the withdrawal, every one of these fights where their partner is negative and they try to go positive and it leads to another fight, it’s just a failure in co regulation. It trains their body. This is why you don’t want to do this, this is why you want to go towards the positive. So when they try to do positivity and it only leads to escalation because stop trying to fix things, stop trying to reassure me. You just don’t know how to be with me. Like all these things that are going to come their way, then they’re going to leave, right? And they’re going to leave and they’re going to go away and they’re just going to reassure themselves and say like, my partner is too much. They just are too negative and they just calm themselves down with this self regulation. And the math behind that is every fight is training them not to do co regulation and turn towards self regulation. So that’s the muscle memory we’re up against when we’re trying to kind of create this change. It’s not just simply advice you tell, ah, stop being so like you have to help them actually have success. And what Laurie and I encouraging you all is if you’re a withdrawal listening and you can catch this anchor that you get pulled to for very good reason going towards the know when your partner or a therapist or somebody else could help you understand the very good reasons you’re doing what you’re doing in that moment, guess what? In that moment you are having success with co regulation. That’s what’s going to train your body to stay engaged, to grow your capacity to do more of these negative emotions. You have to have success. There’s no shortcuts around having success with this co regulation.

Laurie Watson [00:12:19]:

Yeah, I think what we’re trying to get people to do is to be able to be interdependent with each other, which two is stronger than one. And so having a system in your marriage or your partnership where you can rely on each other, two brains are so much smarter than one brain. Two people, the way they share emotions can help. And sometimes people say that are in this using positivity as a defense, they say, but I don’t really need that from my partner. I don’t need them to regulate me. What would you say to that, George?

George Faller [00:12:59]:

I think that has been some of their experiences with their attempts to get help haven’t worked so well. So they’ve overlearned how to self regulate. And we live in a world that really appreciates self regulation and affirms it and you get promoted and it’s really important. What we’re trying to get withdrawals to do is have the flexibility, self regulate when they need to and go to co regulation when it’s going to be acceptable. And unfortunately, most of these people that are positive don’t have that choice.

Laurie Watson [00:13:27]:

Yes.

George Faller [00:13:28]:

So let’s talk about yeah. And talk about what we can do to kind of start shifting that.

Laurie Watson [00:13:33]:

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George Faller [00:15:19]:

Quick shout out to Rebecca Jorgensen and her new exciting game to help couples.

Laurie Watson [00:15:25]:

You can find it on buildingalastingconnection.com the couple connection system. But if you get to the website, you’re going to find this. This is really a cool thing that we want you to take advantage of because it’s very reasonably priced and it basically takes principles of attachment and how you connect, how you can communicate better. It gives you communication starters, conversation starters. It is really a fun thing. We’re using it at our party this weekend for our therapists. We’re going to introduce it to them. It is also a physical thing because it has a mat that you kind of walk around and do these exercises with. The mat assists you to kind of stay focused with each other and grounded because you’re facing each other and you’re moving through this, which we all know, right. Our bodies and our emotions are connected. So it’s a beautiful resource, good stuff.

George Faller [00:16:16]:

Highly recommend it. Check it out.

Laurie Watson [00:16:18]:

That’s buildingalastingconnection.com couple connection system.

George Faller [00:16:28]:

All right. I think it’s worth repeating, Laurie, if you’re a positive person, that you have really good reasons to have gone to this anchor in your life and why you want to and going to it, the timing of it’s usually not right for your partner. So we have to help you see the good reasons you’re doing what you’re doing because that’s what gives you success in the co regulation, not try to do anything bad. I mean, it’s a really hard thing to do when your brain says, make a choke. Focus on the positive. Let’s bring this in a better place where you’re going to feel safer and more connected and your partner can’t go there and then turns all that anger towards you like it’s disjointing for the brain. And then it’s the very thing what the brain was afraid was going to happen, which makes it more likely next time the same thing is going to happen. So I hope everyone listening can start off. We’re always trying to emphasize connect first before you try to fix or give advice. Most people just tell these positive people, stop doing it and just try to lean in and be there. Stop trying to fix things, which is good advice, but it’s missing that critical element right before they give advice, which is their own nervousness, their own fear of what’s going to happen in co regulation. If you connect with that and you give them a little taste of success in co regulation, like somebody’s seeing them and what they’re trying to do, and that makes sense. It creates that safety. You said earlier. It resources them to then be stretched in this uncomfortable place of sitting more with the negative. And eventually, if they can sit in it and experience the success your friend experienced on a walk with you, which is, wait a second, this isn’t so scary, actually. You feel a little bit better when you’re sharing that negativity with another person. That’s what really starts to help these positive people see the value in vulnerability or the negativity. You can’t talk them into it. Their bodies have to experience it.

Laurie Watson [00:18:21]:

I think that is so key, that there’s a moment that the positive person doesn’t feel so positive, doesn’t feel certain, doesn’t feel sure, maybe, about how to handle their partner. Or maybe the partner is bringing up fears that they have, too. And they don’t want to look at that. They don’t want to think about the child who’s slow in learning or the financial bill that’s coming or something. And so when their partner draws their attention to something, that creates anxiety inside them too. They don’t want to go there with their partner. They don’t want to go there with themselves, and so they don’t learn to team up together. That’s one problem.

George Faller [00:19:05]:

Right?

Laurie Watson [00:19:06]:

And what you’re saying is, if we can help them learn what their emotion is and help them share that maybe with their partner. I can’t remember what it was, but my husband and I, he’s nearly always positive about the kids. And I was sharing something, and he turned to me and he said, you know, I’m worried about that too. And it was like I felt so much relief, like I wasn’t crazy, that this thing that I was worried about, he was sharing it with me, and it felt vulnerable, like, okay, he’s got anxiety inside too. And it was a great time of connection for us, for him to start to admit that about his concerns about the children. And really great. And I think that that’s what happens is then I learned on the other side of it about this positive move that he did, is that there was something that happened in him that did not feel good before he went into the positive move. And my heart wants to comfort him there. I don’t want to just dump on him my anxiety about the children. When he tells me he feels anxious too. It’s like and now I can say something comforting to him. I mean, then it becomes mutual. I think that’s one of the things that people who use this as the anchor or the defense are missing. They’re missing that comfort from their partner.

George Faller [00:20:37]:

Exactly. And your husband had some success with that feeling. When you have success, it reduces the threat response, which creates more flexibility to make a choice, like the next time it happens, do I actually feel anxious, which I can talk to my wife about, or actually, you know what? I actually think Positivity is the best way to go with this because there is a lot of value in that, seeing the opportunity for it to do something differently and better instead of kind of getting lost in a funk of things. So there’s a good reason to go both directions and somebody that has the flexibility is going to have the most enriched life. Right. They have the highest levels of engagement. I might be able to pull you into the positive or you might pull me into the negative, but as long as we’re connecting, either way, we win. We’re on the same page. What happens, unfortunately, with the toxic Positivity is I go in the direction of the positive away from the vulnerability. You stay in the vulnerability and get frustrated. And we’re not on the same page. We’re actually turning against each other and that just doesn’t work, especially if it’s chronic.

Laurie Watson [00:21:42]:

Yeah. And I’m thinking about this in a sexual cycle. I’m thinking about actually it was a couple that I saw you work with and the man was kind of that toxic Positivity guy. What would happen is she would come home, try to download her day, and he would try to draw her away from her anxiety and her concerns and her upset with Positivity. Let’s think about all that we’ve got and let’s think about our evening. And his mind was actually he had a need for sexual regulation. That was how he got regulated. And so he’s looking at her thinking, man, if she’s down in the dumps, there ain’t a chance we’re going to have sex.

George Faller [00:22:33]:

What a miss.

Laurie Watson [00:22:34]:

And I could see his strategy that he was trying to pull her actually for his own need. He couched it as Positivity, but what he didn’t share is the ways his day has got him down. And so she was left alone feeling like I’m the negative person, I’m the critical person, I’m the complainer, that feels.

George Faller [00:22:56]:

Crappy, but just pause that a second. The impact, it is crappy for both of them. But again, the intent is good. I mean, that’s his way of saying it gets me out of the funk because I have something to look forward to. We’re going to feel connected if we have sex. I don’t want her to get lost in the funk, so I’m going to try to pull her out. I mean, that Positivity is fighting for her himself and the relationship it is. Right. It’s just doing it in a way that’s terrible timing for her.

Laurie Watson [00:23:24]:

Yes.

George Faller [00:23:24]:

Right. She feels massively disconnected, not only not met, but then kind of blamed for being negative. How do you hell are you supposed to go from that to then wanting.

Laurie Watson [00:23:34]:

Sex if you have the ability? Right. And many sexual pursuers do have that ability to compartmentalize. It’s like, I don’t care that we’re not so emotionally connected. I can still want sex, and I can also know that after sex, we’re going to feel more connection and we’ll be resourced, we’ll be gassed up and maybe better able to deal with our days. It’s not a bad strategy, but for this couple, it was not going to be the strategy that worked.

George Faller [00:24:05]:

Yeah. For most couples, that’s not going to work. So let’s play with it. You want to be the wife, I’ll be the husband. I’ll be the toxic positive one for really good reason. Are you going to try to bring this up to me and give me some success so I could start to be aware of why I do this? Have I done some work?

Laurie Watson [00:24:22]:

No.

George Faller [00:24:22]:

I think and I’m trying to let.

Laurie Watson [00:24:23]:

You in, try to talk me into sex, and I won’t go there because I’m too upset with you for trying to not listen.

George Faller [00:24:32]:

We want to role play what most couples do.

Laurie Watson [00:24:34]:

Yeah, exactly.

George Faller [00:24:34]:

People could exactly.

Laurie Watson [00:24:37]:

Let’s do it the bad way, then. The good way.

George Faller [00:24:39]:

All right.

Laurie Watson [00:24:40]:

I’ve had a terrible day, shitty day. All this stuff at work is just getting me down. I just don’t know what to do with these people.

George Faller [00:24:50]:

Yeah, I’m sorry to hear that. But I was really hoping we could talk tonight about Just. I know we got a trip coming up. We’re going to go to Jamaica, and I really want to kind of plan Just. I’m getting so excited to just get away from work, me and you and be on the beach and kind of have a couple of drinks and just relax and just get excited about the trip. And I think that would be so fun.

Laurie Watson [00:25:16]:

Yeah, I guess so. I just am just not in a headspace to do that. My brain doesn’t shift like that. I cannot think about a trip when I have all this work ahead of me and all the things I got to decide and the people issues that I’m dealing with.

George Faller [00:25:38]:

I can’t go there if we take home all the shit we carry with us at work. Right? I mean, we never turn off work, and then it just starts to ruin what’s happening here. We got a lot of good things here. We didn’t want to watch a show tonight. I want to get some hangout time with you. We’ve kind of put some music on, kind of like, have a good dinner. Let’s just get rid of the work. Who cares about the work? Let’s just kind of enjoy each other.

Laurie Watson [00:26:06]:

I just feel like you’re not listening to me. I appreciate that you want to be romantic and all that, and yes, I want those things, and I hate to be a complainer, but, honey, I am drowning at work, and it’s like you’re not really listening to me, to what.

George Faller [00:26:25]:

I am feeling, because you’re not listening to me either. You’re allowing yourself to drown. It’s a choice. You don’t have to drown. If you want to focus on this, you are going to drown. If you focus on something else, you’ll be in a better place. It’s a choice you can make.

Laurie Watson [00:26:41]:

Okay. I definitely didn’t want to have sex with that guy.

George Faller [00:26:44]:

Come on, now. I was not convinced.

Laurie Watson [00:26:48]:

I was like, he’s leaving me in this terrible place.

George Faller [00:26:52]:

Every couple hopefully can relate to this. We all do this. This is part of the human experience. We are not on the same page. You have good reasons you want to do co regulation with me? I have good reasons why I don’t want to go down that road, although I will work first.

Laurie Watson [00:27:06]:

Part of the sexual pursuer with me was like, yeah, that’s a great strategy. Let’s just have sex and get it all over with.

George Faller [00:27:13]:

There you go.

Laurie Watson [00:27:15]:

Yeah. But this woman that I was being was not a sexual pursuer. She was like, shut down.

George Faller [00:27:21]:

Well, worse than shut down. I mean, she’s set up to reject I’m a complainant.

Laurie Watson [00:27:26]:

Her view of self, what she’s seen in herself is she’s such a drag to him. And if she’s such a drag to him, she’s telling herself he doesn’t see her, and then she’s not desirable, and these needs that she has are too much for him, so she feels pushed away and so not desired.

George Faller [00:27:48]:

Really, it’s a terrible set up for both of them. I mean, if you’re feeling not met and worse, blamed and seen as complainer, why the hell would you want you feel so far away from being so much mistrust. Your body’s not going to want to kind of be intimate. You’re set up to not want sex. I am now kind of trying to hold myself in an open space where I can still have sex and want you and not let the negativity drown me. And then when I reach out to have sex and you’re going to reject me, that’s going to feel terrible for me. I tried to fight for us by trying to hold out the space to be positive, and still that’s not enough. That’s the work that I’m trying to do to fight for the sex. Right. This mathematically is a nightmare for both of us.

Laurie Watson [00:28:33]:

Yes. And I can see what’s going to happen to him. Right. He does have a good intent, and I think the issue is he doesn’t really see what’s happening for her as he tries to pull her toward the good things in their life. He’s clueless about that. So he’s going to get whacked and then know why he’s whacked.

George Faller [00:28:55]:

And worse, when he gets whacked, it’s going to reinforce the next time why he wants to be positive and not go to this place.

Laurie Watson [00:29:00]:

Yeah. Okay.

George Faller [00:29:01]:

That’s just the math behind it. So toxic. Positivity. Please. Positivity is a great thing. We want you to hold on to it. It’s just the timing of when you’re going to do it. If you can pause and say, hey, is this working for the two of us? If it’s working for the two of you, woohoo. Go ahead, Laurie, keep it going.

Laurie Watson [00:29:19]:

Two positive people.

George Faller [00:29:20]:

Two positives makes double positive. Double right? If your positives not being met, you’re not on the same page. Talk about it.

Laurie Watson [00:29:29]:

Okay, thanks for listening.

George Faller [00:29:31]:

Keep it positive, baby. Okay.

Laurie Watson [00:29:33]:

We are doing our training for couples therapists on how to work with sex and the sexual attachment cycle. I’m so excited we’re going to do this sponsoring it ourselves on March 3 and fourth.

George Faller [00:29:47]:

Yeah, Lori, this training is going to be pretty cool, right? We have a whole bunch of therapists already signed up, but this is a chance to really try to figure out how to bring that sexual cycle into the room to work with it, right?

Laurie Watson [00:29:57]:

Exactly. And we’re going to go back and forth between the emotional and the sexual cycle and their interaction and how therapists can really get through when people are blocked in their sexual attachment and we want to do all kinds of things with them. How and when to bring up sex. What are the EFT change events working in the sexual attachment cycle? And I want to do four common sexual dysfunction blocks and I’m just excited. Anatomy and physiology. That’ll be fun.

George Faller [00:30:25]:

Don’t forget our best sex conversation and.

Laurie Watson [00:30:28]:

Our best sex conversation assessment.

George Faller [00:30:30]:

There’s really a ton of information. You’ll leave this training feeling much better equipped on how to work with it. And let’s face it, a lot of us don’t get enough training to feel skilled in this area and we need to do our work. And this is just a good step in that direction.

Laurie Watson [00:30:46]:

Yes. So you can find us on Foreplaysextherapy.com and it’s under the resource section.

George Faller [00:30:53]:

Spread the word.

Joe Davis – Announcer [00:30:55]:

Call in your questions to the Foreplay Question voicemail dial eight three my. Foreplay.

George Faller [00:31:00]:

That’s eight.

Joe Davis – Announcer [00:31:01]:

Three, three my the number four play and we’ll use the questions for our mailbag episodes. All content is for entertainment purposes only and should not be considered as a substitute for therapy by a licensed clinician or as medical advice from a doctor. This podcast is copyrighted by Foreplay Media.

Speaker Ads [00:31:20]:

Hey, guys. I’m Natalie Pouche, and I’m the host of your new favorite podcast, humble and Hungry. It’s time to grab your cheese board and your favorite bottle of wine because we’re having a girls night and we’re about to embark on a whole new journey as we juggle motherhood and blindly navigating through our 30s. We’re talking life, drama, dating, and everything in between. I recommend listening to Humble and Hungry on the Iheart app on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.