Joe Davis – Announcer [00:00:00]:

The following content is not suitable for children.

Laurie Watson [00:00:02]:

OK, George, last week we did some work with the sexual pursuer and helping them articulate their longing, which is so important to the eventual healing of the negative cycle. And today I want to talk with you about the withdrawal of sexual needs and what kind of lies beneath this. What are their longings so that we can help heal the cycle from the withdrawal side as well?

George Faller [00:00:28]:

Bring it on.

Laurie Watson [00:00:31]:

Welcome to foreplay sex therapy. I’m Dr. Laurie Watson, your sex therapist.

George Faller [00:00:36]:

And I’m George Faller, your couples therapist.

Laurie Watson [00:00:38]:

We are here to talk about sex.

George Faller [00:00:40]:

Our mission is to help couples talk about sex in ways that incorporate their body, their mind, and their hearts.

Laurie Watson [00:00:48]:

And we have a little bit of fun doing it. Right?

George Faller [00:00:50]:

G. Listen and let’s change some relationships.

Laurie Watson [00:00:54]:

I also want to just mention we are doing a couple’s retreat on September eigth, so please keep that in mind in your schedule. For your fall schedule, we want to give you a heads up. We’re only doing one this year because our training schedule is getting crazy. But we would love to invite you to our couples retreat on September eigth. It’s by Zoom, and you can find it on our website. Fourplacextherapy.com.

George Faller [00:01:18]:

Nice. And we just completed training therapists two days. Right on. Sex had over 100 therapists. How much fun was that, Laurie, to just kind of, again, get all these questions. We don’t have all the answers, but we’re just again, that excitement is just trying to help us all get clearer and clear and start leaning in this direction because it’s such a great need to help couples talk about their sex lives.

Laurie Watson [00:01:40]:

It was really fun and we’re excited to do it again for our couples. We always have fun with people who are wanting to work on their sex life and come to us. They’re always anxious, what is it going to look like? And I’m glad to email you a little bit about that talk with you so you can get comfy.

George Faller [00:01:57]:

Nice. And who don’t want to be comfy, right?

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George Faller [00:03:30]:

Well, here we are. We talked about these longings. Again, I think too many people think longings wants needs. They ask for it. But the timing when they ask for what they want is it’s not heard by the other person, because the other person is in a defensive position and their needs not being met. So it’s this, like, negotiation where it doesn’t pull people closer together. It feels like, I want you to talk more or I want you to be less critical, and it’s just a negative cycle. But when you can create safety with a couple where they do get their cycle and they start blaming the cycle and working together, what is the new moves? When I’m threatened, can I ask for help instead of going away and protecting myself? So that asking for help is the longing, there’s something you need when you’re threatened, you wouldn’t have to protect yourself if you can get help. How do we slow this down enough to really help people zone in on what would help you in this place of threat? That’s really going to be the key. So today we’re going to talk about.

Laurie Watson [00:04:34]:

With yours, and we’re going to talk about often what they need underneath, what they long for, what are the vulnerable, tender places in them. Yeah, certainly sexual withdrawers often feel like they’re not pleasing their partner, and they are so tired of being judged and criticized. I was thinking of this sexual withdrawal that I work with, and her body really is shut down a lot. She’s very busy, she’s very stressed, and she doesn’t have access personally to a lot of her libido and that tiny little spark, she just can’t quite find it. And so her husband’s disappointment just always makes her feel like, I’m not being a good wife, I’m not being who you want me to be. I’m failing. And I’m thinking about her as we talk about this, her needs.

George Faller [00:05:40]:

Yeah. And again, if we slow this down, so often what withdrawers ask for is, please just stop the negative. They can actually ask for the positive of what their heart kind of desires in this place. So we want to help. Yes. We want to reduce to negative. Yes. We want to kind of make progress on that negative cycle. But once we slow down. When you feel like a failure or you’re always disappointing your partner and you’re discouraged, what do you need in that place? What would help? Instead of just stop doing it? That’s great. We’re working on stop doing it. But inevitably, in life, we’re still going to always get hit, right? We always have raw spots, vulnerable spots that get hit. If we can listen to those places, when I’m a failure, when I feel like I’m a loser or I’m letting you down, what would help me? Can you see how this becomes a game changer if you can get people to listen to these places and actually ask for help?

Laurie Watson [00:06:36]:

Yeah, absolutely. And as I think about her, there’s so many things that she does want and need. First of all, I think she wants for some understanding from her partner and some acceptance that her body really is very different than his, that he has access to that pulsing energy, so to speak, of his libido and his desire. And her body is just kind of silent. It doesn’t signal her with a sexual flare ever. That doesn’t go up. And she wants him to understand so much that she’s working from this other place, this other body.

George Faller [00:07:23]:

Nice, right? That understanding is saying, you’re not broken. This is the way you’re made it’s okay to be this way, that I accept you as being different than me. That acceptance tells that failure place, you don’t have to feel this intense because it’s okay to be different than me. That reassurance is so often what a lot of withdrawals are looking for. The opposite of failure is being told, you are enough. I would choose you again. It’s okay where you’re at, that’s telling, that failure place that even if you fail, I still want you, and it’s okay to fail. Can you see how that would take the pressure off, failing?

Laurie Watson [00:08:08]:

It does. And that reassurance feels so good to her. If that comes, it’s like she doesn’t maybe have the second block of not only does my body not tell me that it’s time for sex, but then my partner’s disappointment in me just further defeats the moment. And so reassurance counters at least the second part. Right. That my partner understands me and appreciates what I’m going through. So she doesn’t have a double block.

George Faller [00:08:44]:

It’s okay. Most withdrawals are not going to know what they need because it’s never been an option. They’re going away, and they’re hiding these places. They don’t want people to see and reject them more or tell them more they’re failing. So it’s so counterintuitive to face this place. But when they do, when there’s enough safety to face it and they can listen to their body, it will start to communicate. There’s always a longing with every hurt. So again, a lot of withdrawals don’t even like words. Words are always usually unfriendly the message. They’re doing something wrong. And a lot of times, withdrawers do like the physical reassurance, like, can you just come find me? Can you grab my hand? Can you give me a hug? Can you rub my face? That message that I’m not alone, that usually they’re loved when they’re successful and when they’re failing, they’re never really loved. They’re left alone. So for somebody to find them, their partner, to find them in this place and say no, the hug is saying, I want you, even though you feel this way about yourself. Damn. That’s pretty good, right?

Laurie Watson [00:09:48]:

Yeah. I think especially when touch sometimes reaches withdraws in ways that words don’t, because you’re right. Words are so critical. And just thinking about her sitting there and I think one of the things that he would do when she wasn’t in the mood is he’d just kind of pull her over to him. They were sitting on the couch watching television or something, and when she would say no, he’d just kind of put his arm around her and pull her in and kiss her head, I guess her hair. And it was like, it’s okay, it’s okay. He didn’t say it, but she was like, relief. That worked.

George Faller [00:10:30]:

Yeah.

Laurie Watson [00:10:31]:

I also want to say a little thing about sexual withdrawals that sexual pursuers are going to have a hard time with is that sometimes their longing underneath is actually sexual. Many sexual withdrawals do have sexual needs and do have very particular sexual needs. And either they haven’t been met in the way that they really need them met, and so they’ve kind of given that up, or they have old issues of shame trauma that kind of block them from their sexual needs emerging. And I think that what is beautiful in this moment is many times the sexual withdrawer does get back in touch with their own sexual needs, but it’s been repressed or shamed or something, and so they hardly have access to it in most of their sexual encounters with their partner. But in this moment when we kind of talk about it, they get back in touch with it.

George Faller [00:11:31]:

Yeah.

Laurie Watson [00:11:32]:

And sometimes I want to say one more thing about the sexual withdrawal. The male sometimes for him, he’s blocked it because he sees his sexual desire as too much or as too dirty something, and so he just kind of has blocked himself sexually. I acted out once as a sexual in my marriage, and so what I learned is my sexual urges are dangerous.

George Faller [00:11:58]:

So I just blocked it most of the time. These big sense of failure are the breaks that stop the sexual energy. If you can go to these breaks and you can kind of let yourself in first and let your partner in, then we could find the solution to these breaks. Once we free up the breaks, we get reassurance with the fears and the hurts. It’s so much easier to access that positive sexual energy that has been blocked throughout this process. So again, to me, it feels like two steps. It’s like, let’s get some reassurance for the fears. Let’s loosen up those breaks. Once those breaks are loosened up now let’s hit some gas pedals. Let’s find this withdrawal that’s kind of been hiding to start accessing these powerful sexual longings that they just haven’t had the capacity to deal with, because these breaks have been shutting everything down. Okay, let’s come back and talk about role playing and how we get this to ask for what they need, the solution to the positive, to the negative cycle.

Laurie Watson [00:13:01]:

I think I get to be the therapist this morning.

George Faller [00:13:03]:

I like it. That sounds good to me.

Laurie Watson [00:13:08]:

Hey, y’all.

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Laurie Watson [00:14:19]:

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George Faller [00:15:51]:

Perfect. And again, just a reminder to everybody, you have to bring the fears alive if you’re going to get the longings. This is the thing that never happens for any partner, right when they’re threatened, they go right into defenses. Defenses provide short term protection, but they hide the vulnerability. And if you hide it, you’re never going to get the solution to the threat. So that’s why Lori’s going to bring that fear alive, to then get to what I might need, which has never been an option.

Laurie Watson [00:16:21]:

Okay. So, Joe, we’ve been working for a while now, and I appreciate how much insight you’ve had and how far you’ve come and how vulnerable you’ve already been in this process. And I’m just wondering if today we could talk about kind of what is underneath the part of you that does go away sexually, and if you would be willing to think with me about that.

George Faller [00:16:51]:

Well, I don’t want to, but I know we need to. It’s important. We’re going to do this differently.

Laurie Watson [00:16:57]:

Yeah. I appreciate the part that says I don’t want to do this because who wants to go toward things that don’t feel so good? None of us. You’re not alone there. None of us want to do this thing that might hurt or might feel bad. It’s tough. And you’ve said that sometimes when Jane approaches you, you just feel this thing. Shut it. Can you kind of go with me about what that strong shutdown is, about.

George Faller [00:17:30]:

What you’re could just even now, as we’re talking about it’s, like, I feel my body tensen up when she reaches over and we’re laying in bed. It’s like, uhoh, that’s my immediate response, that I know she wants to be intimate, and I’m going to let her down because I’m not in a mood. And I also know not only am I going to let her down, but I’m going to feel pretty lousy about myself. That, yet again, what’s wrong with me? I must not be a man. So it’s just terrible.

Laurie Watson [00:18:05]:

So even as we start talking about it, your body starts to feel tense, and you kind of tell yourself, when this happens, you’re going to let her down and you’re going to fail, and you’re not even a man. Those are pretty tough things. Can you tell me about this place inside that starts to feel tense? Is it all over your body or particular places?

George Faller [00:18:31]:

I just feel it in my neck and shoulders. It’s like bracing. I mean, it’s throughout my whole body, but mostly right there, it’s like, not again, not again.

Laurie Watson [00:18:41]:

She’s reaching for me, and I feel this tension. My shoulders, my neck, all of that. It’s this part that’s bracing. Not again. It’s coming again. Is it kind of bracing against that?

George Faller [00:18:57]:

Yeah. Again, because she’s wanting it, and I’m glad she wants it. I know that’s a good thing, but it just feels like I’m hurting her. What’s wrong with me? Why is my body not working? Why can’t I just be turned on? Shouldn’t be this hard. So I guess I do feel like I’m failing. I’m a failure. Actually, I think, yeah, it’s kind of.

Laurie Watson [00:19:28]:

Like, why doesn’t my body get turned on? I know this is good, I know this is healthy, what she’s reaching for, but I’m kind of bracing for that impact of I’m a failure, something’s wrong with me. I can’t get turned on. Your body feels it, and you’re telling yourself, yeah, I’m failing here, I’m going to fail her. But even inside, it sounds like inside you there’s this worry. I’m a failure. I’m not a good sexual partner. I’m not a man. Can you go a little further with that and tell me what that place is, that painful place?

George Faller [00:20:09]:

Can I make a joke now?

Laurie Watson [00:20:12]:

Well, I appreciate we all want to joke and get out of these things and that’s good, right? We want to escape this painful place. Even I want to give you yeah, make a joke, say something funny because I feel for you, especially when you’re both in bed, it’s dark. And for you, who wants to stay in that dreadful place of what you’re saying goes through you, the tension.

George Faller [00:20:40]:

Yeah, I guess actually, I never really thought about it like this, but I know I’m failing. We’ve talked about that. But I guess it feels like when I’m failing on a deeper level, it’s kind of confirmation that I am a failure. Right. It’s like proof. It’s like, here we go again. You can try to be positive and read books and do all that stuff, but here it is again. Here’s your test and you’re failed again. You are a loser. That’s what I feel like. It’s confirmation, isn’t I have to admit that’s true. That’s what I feel like.

Laurie Watson [00:21:20]:

Yeah. The worst place is I’m failing and I’m a loser. My body doesn’t turn on. I’m not going to be who she wants, and it must mean I’m a loser. That’s a terrible place. When you think about this, this place that is like you are calling yourself a loser. I see it. It’s like disgust almost at yourself for being a loser is what you say to yourself. And that just hurts me as I hear you say, okay, so when you’re saying that, Joe, and you’re feeling like a loser, do you have any sense of what you would need that would be comforting to you in this place that you’re feeling like a loser?

George Faller [00:22:11]:

Yeah, I need my penis to work.

Laurie Watson [00:22:14]:

Yeah, I bet you do. And then when it doesn’t, it’s even worse. It’s like your body you’re calling yourself a loser. Your body responds to know, not feeling desire. And then this second part that is saying the scathing criticism of yourself, I’m a loser. Your penis doesn’t work. Of course you need your penis to work, and that would kind of solve all of this. Is there anything that you need from Jane that would be comforting in this moment when your penis isn’t working and you feel this deep sense of I’m a loser, is there anything she could say or could do to touch you or comfort you in this place where you need so much?

George Faller [00:22:59]:

Never really thought about it, but maybe I do feel so much pressure on me and maybe some kind of message that it’s going to be okay. It’s not the end of the world. It’s not that big of a deal.

Laurie Watson [00:23:18]:

Just some sense that she takes the pressure off this moment, that this moment is not critical to who you and her are together, and it’s okay maybe that your penis isn’t hard or doesn’t work right now and kind of takes the pressure off both of you. Maybe just a little of reassurance like, this is not the end of the world. It’s okay that you’re not ready, that you’re not responding, that you’re not a loser, that she loves you, that she accepts that this is not the moment. How would that feel to you?

George Faller [00:23:55]:

I think that would be different because I really don’t accept it. But maybe if she could let me know that it’s okay, she’s okay with it, that would help. Yeah.

Laurie Watson [00:24:11]:

So if she could let you know somehow that it’s okay, that this moment, it’s not your moment and that she’s not going to be upset with you, that she has some understanding of what you’re going through and the pressure that you feel in this scathing thing, that you’re saying that you’re not a loser, it would be good. What about do you think you could say to her and ask her for this? What I really need here is to be told it’s okay, that it’s okay that I’m not ready. I’m not ready in my body. I’m not ready in this moment to be with you. Do you think you could ask her for some reassurance here? What would that be like?

George Faller [00:25:02]:

It’s a bit scary, but I think I can do it.

Laurie Watson [00:25:08]:

The scariness is it tells us we’re right where we need to be, because it is so risky to ask for that, especially with this self judgment that you have. So could you turn to her and say.

George Faller [00:25:27]:

Jane, I mean, I guess deep down, I don’t really believe in me in this place, and I wouldn’t blame you if you don’t really believe in me in this place. But it could really help if you could believe in me and tell me it’s going to be okay.

Laurie Watson [00:25:54]:

Yeah, I do believe in you. I really do. It’s okay with me that you’re not ready when I reach for you. It’s okay that your body isn’t ready. I don’t expect you to be hard in those moments. Like when it just occurs to me in the spur of the moment, I just want to be with you. You are what’s important to me, being with you. And it doesn’t have to be sexual. I get excited about touching you, about reaching for you. It’s okay. It’s not the end of the world if we don’t have sex. It’s not the end of the world if it’s not your moment. I love you. You’re not loser.

George Faller [00:26:37]:

I appreciate it. It’s hard to take it in. It feels like I’m only good when I win and get it right. So when I fail, it’s hard to imagine. But I guess what you’re saying is, even if I fail, you still want me.

Laurie Watson [00:26:57]:

I do want you. And we think about this a little bit differently. For me, I’m believing in you. I’m believing in us. I don’t even see you as a loser or a failure. It’s okay to not be in the mood. It’s okay to take a lot of time with each other. And I think that I so want you to hear that I love you in these moments that I see you as valuable, and I see you as a good sexual partner. It’s okay to have this time that it’s not your moment. You have a right to not be ready when I just spontaneously bring it up, that’s okay.

George Faller [00:27:38]:

I can feel my shoulders loosening up now.

Laurie Watson [00:27:42]:

Good.

George Faller [00:27:43]:

I feel my neck. I feel more relaxed. Right. So again, that’s the longer for me to be wanted and find connection in places. I usually only find isolation and self criticism every time I fail.

Laurie Watson [00:28:00]:

Wait, let me process with you. I want to know what Joe felt. So Joe felt his shoulders loosen up.

George Faller [00:28:07]:

Yes, joe has felt loose. And I can feel myself, like, having a bit of success in a place I’d normally never have any success. It’s hard to trust it, but it feels really good. I never feel relaxed. The opposite of pressure is relief, and that’s kind of what I feel.

Laurie Watson [00:28:28]:

Nice.

George Faller [00:28:29]:

Yeah. And again, for you, which are listening, there’s always a longing when you’re threatened to be able to take the time to try to find your words, to kind of get help in this place. That’s what love does. That’s real courage to ask for help. We’re not designed to face these places alone. Just because you faced it alone most of your life doesn’t mean you have to keep doing that. And when we can find connection in these dark, shadowy places, the world just becomes a safer place. And it unleashes all this energy now that I can free up, to actually start to figure out what the hell I want sexually, I need that reassurance. And I can feel myself more calm, like saying what would turn me on now? And starting to access more of those positive longings once the fears are reduced.

Laurie Watson [00:29:22]:

Yeah. I just am again reminded of the male sexual withdrawal. So much pressure. He feels like he should have that spark that comes alive instantaneously no matter what, and his penis should respond as well. And he should have an erection like, boom. I mean, it’s out of the blue. And he has so much pressure on him. And how could he move from that sense of pressure and telling himself he’s a loser into a sexual moment? He doesn’t even give himself a heartbeat to move into a sexual moment because he’s already condemned himself.

George Faller [00:29:58]:

Yes. Let’s get it with yours. Take some pressure off, please. Sex is better with less pressure.

Laurie Watson [00:30:05]:

And I think that the sexual pursuer woman was able to reassure him.

George Faller [00:30:09]:

Yes.

Laurie Watson [00:30:09]:

She didn’t have very good expectation.

George Faller [00:30:12]:

Exactly.

Laurie Watson [00:30:13]:

Okay, all, thanks for listening.

George Faller [00:30:15]:

Keep it hot, y’all.

Joe Davis – Announcer [00:30:17]:

Call in your questions to the Foreplay Question voicemail dial eight, three three my. Foreplay. That’s eight, three, three, my. The number four play, and we’ll use the questions for our mailbag episodes. All content is for entertainment purposes only and should not be considered as a substitute for therapy by a licensed clinician or as medical advice from a doctor. This podcast is copyrighted by Foreplay Media.

Speaker Ads [00:30:40]:

Hi, I’m Sarah May, and I’m the host of your new favorite show, help Me, Be Me. It’s a self help podcast for people who hate self help. Help Me, Be Me is full of practical tools to help you overcome a variety of emotional challenges delivered in a way that’s caring but frank. So if that sounds up your alley, I would invite you to check out Help Me, Be Me on the Iheart app on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks.