Joe Davis – Announcer [00:00:00]:

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Laurie Watson [00:00:02]:

George there are so many typical blocks of pursuers and withdrawals when it comes to sexual connection. And I’m just thinking, if we can talk about them, people won’t feel so alone out there. They’ll recognize themselves, and maybe we can show them the way out of those blocks.

George Faller [00:00:20]:

I love it. Laurie let’s do it.

Laurie Watson [00:00:24]:

Welcome to foreplay sex therapy. I’m Dr. Laurie Watson, your sex therapist.

George Faller [00:00:29]:

And I’m George Faller, your couple’s therapist.

Laurie Watson [00:00:32]:

We are here to talk about sex.

George Faller [00:00:34]:

Our mission is to help couples talk about sex in ways that incorporate their body, their mind, and their hearts.

Laurie Watson [00:00:42]:

And we have a little bit of fun doing it. Right?

George Faller [00:00:43]:

G listen and let’s change some relationships.

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George Faller [00:01:16]:

This is such an important thing to be ready for these blocks, right. They’re not so scary when you’re ready for them, and that’s what change looks like. When you try to create change, you’re going to run up against mistrust. Right. You’re going to run up against people not sure what they’re supposed to do. And the timing always sucks. Right. You get one person with a new move and the other person’s not sure what to do with it, and both of them then get pulled right back into the negative cycle. So really preparing our listeners, like, wait a second, have a plan for these blocks before they happen. Then you have a chance when they come for you. No wonder why most of the time, these blocks really derail the whole progress that couples are making.

Laurie Watson [00:01:55]:

Yeah, exactly. I think that what we expect is things to go well, and so we don’t plan for what happens when we hit a typical block. What are our moves? What can we do different rather than getting into the negative cycle, if we know we’re a pursuer and our withdrawal is going to give us that look and that’s happened 500 times, we can have a plan for what to do about it that doesn’t push us into the direction of conflict.

George Faller [00:02:23]:

Exactly. Well, let’s get into it. I think the most common block right from the get go that we could run into is you have this sexual withdrawal. Who is the emotional pursuer, right. So a lot of times say it’s the wife in the couple, typically that is coming here because they want connection, they want to strengthen their marriage, but they don’t really want to talk about sex because they’re feeling so disconnected that they’re not really in the mood. So they’re coming into therapy kind of pushing a certain conversation. So as we start to explore as the therapist, the sexual conversation, like, how are you doing in that area? You better expect them to be like, why are we talking about this? I’m not here to talk about this. My partner might really want to talk about this, which is our job is to kind of hold both of those truths. But are we ready for that first block to really start to help this sexual withdrawal recognize, listen, it’s okay to not want to have sex. It’s not okay to not want to talk about not having sex.

Laurie Watson [00:03:27]:

I really like that distinction. And I think this goes for certainly as therapists when we’re trying to help people, but even for the pursue withdrawal cycle in the couple, if the pursuer wants to bring it up and talk about it and the withdrawal is an emotional pursuer and wants more connection but doesn’t want to talk about it because they don’t feel connected. Some of that is timing, right? You can imagine maybe a male who is a sexual pursuer and an emotional withdrawal for him. He’s actually initiating when he wants to talk about it. It’s a good thing. It’s just the timing is terrible. The timing sucks if he brings it up and she’s not ready because she’s angry or feeling disconnected emotionally. So what do we do both in the room and what do we do? How do we help the couple through that block themselves?

George Faller [00:04:21]:

The best thing we could do with all blocks is honor the function of that protection, that emotional pursuer. Right? But this sexual withdrawal, we’re using the example of Jane, jane and Joe here. When Joe wants to talk about sex, jane is like, why are we talking about this? We haven’t talked about anything significant for the last two weeks. Now you want to talk about know it’s a set up for her body to protest, to feel like I don’t feel connected to you. If you want to have other conversations first, then I’d maybe be into this conversation, but you’re getting too far out in front of me. So that wall is just trying to create safety. How does Joe prepare himself for that? Yes, he’s initiating, and it sucks when you initiate, you get rejected and shot down. But do you recognize the likelihood of that happening? And then you could say, wait a second. I know you’re reluctant to want to talk about this because we haven’t been close, and maybe we need to have another conversation, too. We need to have one about what was happening for us emotionally and sexually to build a larger context that doesn’t get surprised by shrinking this conversation just to sex probably is not going to feel safe for that emotional that sexual withdrawal.

Laurie Watson [00:05:36]:

Yeah. So I like what you’re saying first. You’re saying if you’re bringing up the conversation, you have to predict essentially your partner’s block. You have to predict that they’re going to be defensive about it. And then you have to think about what is their need? How can I enlarge this conversation so I also encompass their need so they don’t have to be so defensive. I think when we’re pursuers in either direction, sexually or emotionally, we get myopic we get focused on what we need, and it builds this thing inside of us. There’s so much push. By the time we let it out, we’re already anxious about letting it out, and we don’t have that bandwidth to really be flexible and talk with our partner about and include in the conversation their needs. And I know as a pursuer, I don’t say things so many times, then by the time I’m ready to say something, there’s all this frustration that’s built up inside me. And so I’m not in as a flexible place as maybe I need to be to have those conversations. So maybe the pursuer has to check inside. Am I in a flexible place? Is this really a good time for me? Do I have enough expansion to include my partner’s needs in this conversation? Or at least say, let’s separate these conversations. I know you have some needs here, and I want to talk about those, and maybe we can do that first or second, but these are my needs that I’d really love to talk with you about. And I know this doesn’t go so well often between the two of us.

George Faller [00:07:13]:

Yeah. It’s a set up to miss each other. And if you’re preparing and anticipating blocks, you can get around that set up. So if I’m the pursuer and I’m expecting you to not want to have this conversation, so when I bring it up, I’m already frustrated. I’m walking right into the minefield because I’m pushing you to have a conversation you’re not feeling safe to have. Block me. And here we go. We are done. And we’re only a sentence or two into this conversation.

Laurie Watson [00:07:40]:

Exactly. And there’s bad juju on it because I can feel your energy. I can feel your bad, negative pushing energy that is like, oh, forget it.

George Faller [00:07:49]:

If I can start that conversation and say, hey, Jane, I recognize every time we have a conversation around sex and you’re not feeling safe, especially when there’s a lot of distance emotionally between us, you’re reluctant to want to engage. And that makes sense. That’s not your fault. But then when you don’t engage, I feel frustrated, and we’re both stuck. So I’m trying to figure out with you when would be the best time to talk, know our sexual dynamics. And I know it’s just as important to talk about our emotional dynamics. I’m inviting you into the conversation because I’m anticipating your block.

Laurie Watson [00:08:24]:

Yeah. I love what you said, and I think Jane would feel a little more relaxed about entering the conversation knowing that you have remembered and thought about her.

George Faller [00:08:36]:

Good.

Laurie Watson [00:08:37]:

Yeah. Okay.

George Faller [00:08:38]:

We get Jane to buy in and she says, all right, let’s have this conversation. Another typical block is now Jade starts to talk about the reluctance, what happens, and I asked for this conversation. And yet as Jane starts to talk, some of what she says going to trigger me and I’m going to take over the space and make it about me and stop the exploration of Jane, right. This is the mission. I’m inviting Jane to explore her own sexual self. She starts to do it and I can’t stop myself from taking the space back over again, a very typical block you’re going to see.

Laurie Watson [00:09:14]:

Yeah. And I can imagine many ways that that happens. I’ve seen that happen in the room with people. Are you thinking of a particular example?

George Faller [00:09:22]:

Because I’ve got some just go with it.

Laurie Watson [00:09:25]:

But what do like I think what will happen is Jane will complain, right. She’ll say, well, the reason I’m not as engaged sexually is you don’t touch me, right? You’re too rough with me or you.

George Faller [00:09:37]:

Don’T really get I touch you, right? You never let me, you never even take your clothes off. I mean, what am I supposed to exactly.

Laurie Watson [00:09:44]:

That’s a good defense. Boom, boom and we’re in it.

George Faller [00:09:48]:

But how do we again, be ready for that? We want the withdrawal to engage. That they’re sharing this information is critical. If I can’t give this space because it triggers me too much that I’m going to shut down the very process I’m inviting. So again, as a pursuer, I got to be ready to hold my own triggers to recognize the bigger picture instead of getting caught up in the moment and wanting to defend myself.

Laurie Watson [00:10:14]:

Exactly. So what we’re saying is first enter the conversation, predict that there’s going to be a block in your withdrawal. Give them space, honor their block and honor that they have other needs that may be unrelated to this conversation. Then next, prepare for some potential criticism or some real reasons why they’re not engaged. I think sexual pursuers often think, well, my partner doesn’t like sex. That’s the answer. They’re frigid, they could care less. But then when they start to hear that there are things about the sexual relationship that aren’t going so well, that feels critical. So we got to prepare as a sexual pursuer for criticism.

George Faller [00:10:57]:

Yeah. Back another really common one that we see. So you start to get the sexual withdrawal to get curious about their sexuality and then the emotional pursuer part of them gets triggered and they take over the space. So again, if Jane is saying, yeah, I’m not really sure what I like sexually and I’m not really sure I haven’t explored so much of my body, and they’re starting to explore themselves, and then that piece gets triggered, and they’re like, but if I was feeling safe and connected because if Joe would just give me more know, we wouldn’t be in this place. And Joe just doesn’t ever want to talk about anything. And you see how that likely block you start getting this person in a space where they’re uncomfortable and their brain goes to an anchor. It goes to something more familiar to criticism emotionally of their partner that causes this distance in the first place. So again, we want to prepare all you for this. This is going to happen. This is what humans do. Right. The emotional withdrawal is not trying to be difficult. It’s just the part of them gets hit and then it defends. And then the sexual pursuer feels the criticism and then the emotional withdrawal part of them says, this is why I don’t want to have these conversations. All of a sudden we got this kind of freeze.

Laurie Watson [00:12:18]:

Right? Exactly. I think what I liked about your example is at least the sexual withdrawal started to see kind of the intent and the goal of the sexual pursuer was for them to have a fuller experience, more pleasure. But then maybe internally they got threatened. It’s like, oh, I don’t know if I can go there. I have never gone there. I’m afraid of what I might find, all of this stuff. So they resort back to the push, the emotional push. Well, if you had made me feel safe all along, maybe I would have done this exploration, which is the conflict. And then the sexual pursuer says their emotional withdrawal kicks in and says, forget it. It’s no use to have this conversation. Yeah, I have a couple that that happens with quite regularly.

George Faller [00:13:10]:

Well, again, it happens to all of us. How cool is it to have a conversation and be ready for it, to talk about your plan now? Right. If you’re an emotional sexual withdrawal and you’re going to try to access yourself and go deeper, it’s likely this is going to happen. Like, you and your partner should be ready for that and say, what are we going to do? Can we even name that? There’s something so powerful of just saying, you know what, it’s really hard for me to stay focused on me here. It’s a lot easier for me to go back and pay attention to what you’re not doing emotionally. And maybe I over rely on that. I know that must be hard for you. That would feel great for me as the sexual pursuer, the emotional withdrawal, to hear my partner trying to protect me in that conversation.

Laurie Watson [00:13:52]:

So true. Yes. So the sexual withdrawal, one thing too that is present is that I think they might be encountering internal blocks, not just between them, and absolutely encountering internal blocks of looking inside. What if I find out I am frigid? What if I find out I don’t like sex? And then, oh my God, the marriage is going to be over. So there’s a lot of fear that they’re up against. And so it’s easier to turn it to the other, to maybe blame the other for this problem because it’s scary.

George Faller [00:14:27]:

To look inside sometimes, and it moves so fast. It’s not a choice. That’s why I like it’s. Just like your body is so quick. That threat response that says, you keep going down this road, something bad is going to happen. Do this instead, and boom, it just goes into that protective space.

Laurie Watson [00:14:44]:

Exactly.

George Faller [00:14:45]:

So let’s come back and start talking about some of these pursuer blocks.

Laurie Watson [00:14:53]:

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George Faller [00:16:00]:

Laurie we just keep pushing it. Coming up with a new module on the playbook of a pursuer, playbook of a witcher. Really practical, moment by moment moves of what a therapist can use. We’re so focused on what’s happening in session enough, there’s talk about theories and these global things. I think most therapists are looking for, what do I do in this moment? Give me a tool. George so that’s what we’re trying to do.

Laurie Watson [00:16:26]:

That’s awesome. I am so glad you guys are doing this work. I think it helps us be organized to see you do it. You do demos, you do explanations. Teaching. It really is interactive. And I think that so many trainings that we sit through don’t give us an opportunity for that. So what you’re doing is really important.

George Faller [00:16:45]:

No, we try to emphasize the teach it, show it, do it model of learning. You need to have some ideas. So we try to teach those, and then we try to show what it looks like implementing those ideas. But most importantly, you now got to practice it. That’s how they become yours. And that’s what we want our listeners and watchers to do, is become their own moves.

Laurie Watson [00:17:04]:

Find George and his [email protected]. Okay, so you said for sewer blocks, G, what have you got? What do you think happens once they’re in it? And you’re saying the pursuer gets blocked?

George Faller [00:17:20]:

Yeah, I think a really common one I see is you get the sexual withdrawal to start engaging, and then they actually then initiate. Right. They initiate sex, which is what we’ve been trying to get the whole time. And then what is the sexual pursuer? They don’t respond. They want to give the withdrawal a taste of what it’s like for them all the time. Rejection is going to motivate them. Right. It’s a typical block. We see.

Laurie Watson [00:17:44]:

Oh, it’s such a good one too. It’s like, now is my moment. I can get them to feel what I feel all the time rather than rewarding the initiation, which encourages them to do more of it. The cycle is entrenched. This is so true because people swap places in the cycle all the time. As soon as you almost get there, then you withdraw. I mean, pursuers. It’s classic. We push and push and push, and as soon as we get a little of what we want, we’re like, oh, forget it. It’s not enough, or you’re not doing it right. Or so many things come up in us that we walk away from what’s on the table for us at that moment.

George Faller [00:18:25]:

Well, again, it’s not a choice. It’s just mistrust. When you’re pushing for something, your brain has thousands and thousands of examples of pushing and not getting. When it finally gets it, it’s hard to trust it. It’s hard to know what to do with it. You don’t have a lot of practice with that. So your brain goes to something more familiar. Right again. And we want you to be ready for this instead of getting shocked that it happens. Like the pursuer, the withdrawal often says, what’s wrong with you? I do what you’re saying and you don’t respond to it. And then the pursuer starts to think there’s something wrong with them too. And meanwhile, this was all very predictable.

Laurie Watson [00:19:00]:

So true. Okay, what else you got for us? Pursuers.

George Faller [00:19:06]:

These pursuers. I think another common block is when you get the sexual pursuer to start to soften as they start to talk about what happens to them sexually and how important that is. And the rejection, when you start to lead them into the emotions underneath what it feels like to be rejected, the emotional withdrawal part of them gets triggered and like, what the hell are you doing? And they start to clam up and want to stop the conversation. They’re pushing for this conversation. They start to engage in the conversation. It’s working. They start to go deeper. And then the emotion, which you’re a part of, says, what the hell you do? We don’t do these emotions. And they put the brakes on the whole process.

Laurie Watson [00:19:49]:

Exactly. Yeah. So you’re talking about the sexual pursuer, who is talking about how bad it feels to be rejected. But then in that moment of vulnerability, they just feel like it’s too much for me. My emotional withdrawing part is at too much risk to share these things. And so then they stop the conversation, and of course, then they can’t share about this in a vulnerable way. Maybe they revert back to anger or revert back to a more defensive posture.

George Faller [00:20:22]:

Exactly. And that’s what change looks like as they start to go underneath their anger to their vulnerability. But they don’t have a lot of practice talking about that or sharing that. Those protective parts are going to kick in. And usually it’s terrible timing for the sexual withdrawal who’s given this space and is being open and being responsive and being vulnerable, and all of a sudden their partner disappears on them. Then they’re like, what the hell just happened there? Right. So again, being ready for that, we can name it and we can start. Even if we can’t stop it in a moment, we could come back afterwards to repair and say, you know what? I really didn’t know how to stay in that conversation. Even though I’ve been pushing for it, it dropped so quickly for me. I kind of got freaked out and I put up the wall. And I know the wall does bad things to you, and I’m sorry that that happened.

Laurie Watson [00:21:12]:

Yeah. And again, I want to say it’s normal to feel anxiety that overwhelms us when we’re starting to be vulnerable, any of us, from either position, either cycle. It is so hard. We’re not familiar with that kind of language. We’re not familiar with sharing our deepest fears. It leaves us even more vulnerable. It’s our underbelly. It’s like, now I’m giving you more power to hurt me by sharing these things. So it’s very difficult.

George Faller [00:21:42]:

Exactly. So another block I see with sexual pursuers is they start to again, open up and go softer, more vulnerable, and they start to talk about their anxiety. And that anxiety triggers the sexual withdrawal partner to want to pull away. They’re like, this is your stuff. I can’t fix this. This is way too much. Like, I’m already freaked out with pressure when it comes to sex, and now you got all this anxiety underneath it. It’s too much for me. And the sexual withdrawal goes back to a safe place of not wanting to talk about it. Again, bad timing.

Laurie Watson [00:22:26]:

So this is the between block. It’s like when they talk about the anxiety that overwhelms the sexual withdrawal. And I also see this in action in the sexual cycle. So sometimes the sexual pursuer is in touch with their anxiety and they can see that it’s a turn off for the sexual withdrawal. And so they name it. I know I’m not very seductive tonight. I’m just feeling anxious. I get afraid that you’ll reject me or something. And right then, the sexual withdrawer, who is kind of counting on overwhelming sexual energy to carry the day, rejects them and says, well, you’re right. It’s not very sexy what you’re doing. It’s not very seductive. When you start telling me, when you look at me with that little boy look and you tell me that you’re anxious, it’s like, now, what do you want me to do with that? And boom.

George Faller [00:23:14]:

Yeah. The anxiety becomes a turn off. It becomes a break for the sexual withdrawal. They don’t got a lot to begin with and this anxiety puts them over the top and they go back to what’s safe.

Laurie Watson [00:23:24]:

But we’re not saying don’t share it. We’re not saying then you should keep that inside.

George Faller [00:23:29]:

That’s part of change. Both people have to build their capacity to kind of face these new parts that are being revealed. And the more that you could take the other person’s mistrust, less personal, the easier it is to repair and get back to the conversation. Another really common, probably the most common, is when you have the sexual pursuer start to open it up, start to go more vulnerable, start to talk about their fears and anxieties. It triggers the sexual withdrawal, the emotional pursuer part of them that knows what it’s like to have anxieties and hurts and rejection. And then they want to protest that. They want to say, hey, wait a second. You feel anxious because I’m not having sex. What about me when I want to have conversations? And you walk away all the time? I mean, can’t you see how your lack of engagement emotionally is the root problem here in the relationship? And before you know it, the protested emotional part of that sexual withdrawal comes to the front and it takes over the space, which then shuts down that sexual pursuer to really put words to their anxiety.

Laurie Watson [00:24:40]:

Yeah, so you’re talking about a softened pursuer and the sexual withdrawal gets triggered in their emotional pursuing part. This is the crisscross cycles which is most typical in heterosexual couples. And then they take over the conversation and then the sexual pursuer withdraws.

George Faller [00:24:59]:

Exactly. And that’s that crossover. It started off a sexual pursuer is trying to soften, but the sexual withdrawal turns off and turns up the emotional pursuant part of them, which then triggers the sexual pursuer to turn into the emotional withdrawal. So it’s just like that, those cycles flip flop and literally take over the space.

Laurie Watson [00:25:23]:

Yeah. I have one more block for the sexual pursuer. So sometimes when we’re in later stages and the couple is actually starting to talk and the sexual withdrawal has looked inside and they’ve looked at their childhood, they’ve looked at their first experiences, they’ve kind of started to think about why they shut down, why they block, maybe why they’re not as curious. And they start to get curious about themselves and they start to explore their fantasies. And suddenly the sexual pursuer is anxious about that. Like what? You have these fantasies, those things I’m not sure are so acceptable to me. I didn’t know you had that. And they get anxious about this exploration that their partner is doing. So they block that way. And then the sexual withdrawal often wants them to look at themselves. What about your history? What about your early experiences? What about your fantasies and the sexual pursuer because they’ve been so focused on maybe getting it, they haven’t really focused on their internal sexual world to figure out who they are inside. It’s like the goal was just to get it and then I’ll figure all that stuff out later. And they have never articulated to their partner their sexual fantasies. I’ve said this probably a hundred times in session, George, to the sexual, like, have you ever told your sexual withdrawal who you are on the inside? And they’re like, no, I’ve never let these things out. And it’s like, okay, you want this so bad, but your lack of vulnerability shuts things down between you. Shuts down the creativity and the eroticism.

George Faller [00:27:06]:

Nice. Well, we just figured we’d do an episode on some typical blocks that we see, and we really invite you all to reach out to us, let us know different types of blocks. But the more we’re all working together to anticipate these blocks, it takes some of the mystery out of the challenges in these conversations. It is so likely to happen. You can’t create change without working through mistrust. So let’s be ready for the mistrust in these conversations. And instead of taking them so personal and not be ready for them, let’s have a play. And maybe it’s not in that moment, but maybe it’ll be the next day to say it happened. Know, I couldn’t stay. We use the language mission all the time, finish the mission, right? If Jane is sharing, if I want Jane to reengage, that’s the mission. It’s not the time for me, Joe’s stuff to take over the space. And we’re human, and sometimes that happens, but when it happens, I can repair and say, I’m sorry that happened. It doesn’t mean I’m not going to need the mission focused on me. But you can’t do two missions at the same time, right? And blocks are really good at bringing in a whole nother mission. And it’s usually in those precise moments that couples get lost, the negative cycle takes over the space.

Laurie Watson [00:28:19]:

And we’d love to invite you. If you’re a listener and you are familiar with your own cycle and the blocks that come up, please let us know. Send us an email about your block so that we can either think that through on air or we can just understand more about what you’re going through. We would love for this episode to be more interactive with you. Thanks y’all, for listening.

George Faller [00:28:39]:

Keep it hot, y’all.

Joe Davis – Announcer [00:28:42]:

Call in your questions to the Foreplay Question voicemail dial eight three three my foreplay. That’s eight three three my. The number four play, and we’ll use the questions for our mailbag episodes. All content is for entertainment purposes only and should not be considered as a substitute for therapy by a licensed clinician or as medical advice from a doctor. This podcast is copyrighted by Foreplay Media.

Laurie Watson [00:29:05]:

Hi, I’m Sarah May, and I’m the host of your new favorite show, help Me, Be Me. It’s a. Self help podcast for people who hate self help. Help Me, Be Me is full of practical tools to help you overcome a variety of emotional challenges delivered in a way that’s caring but frank. So if that sounds up your alley, I would invite you to check out Help Me, Be Me on the Iheart app on Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks.