Joe Davis – Announcer [00:00:00]:

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George Faller [00:00:01]:

Children initiating versus receptive sex. Laurie, the world split. What do you think?

Laurie Watson [00:00:10]:

I think that we need to talk about this.

George Faller [00:00:13]:

OOH. I got the serious Laurie here.

Laurie Watson [00:00:16]:

Yeah. Welcome to foreplay sex therapy. I’m Dr. Laurie Watson, your sex therapist.

George Faller [00:00:24]:

And I’m George Faller, your couple’s therapist.

Laurie Watson [00:00:26]:

We are here to talk about sex.

George Faller [00:00:28]:

Our mission is to help couples talk about sex in ways that incorporate their body, their mind, and their hearts.

Laurie Watson [00:00:36]:

And we have a little bit of fun doing it.

George Faller [00:00:38]:

Right, g. Listen and let’s change some relationships.

Laurie Watson [00:00:42]:

Don’t forget to check out Uberlube.com with the coupon foreplay. It really helps us to support the podcast and keep delivering free content. Thanks so much.

George Faller [00:00:50]:

I think this is part of God’s sense of humor, this dichotomy between people who are turned on and want to initiate and are driven to kind of connect versus people who are more receptive, who kind of kind of get into it, who don’t have that drive to kind of connect. And sometimes this falls along gender lines. Right. Because testosterone really helps us, but certainly not always. Women could have be initiators and men could be more receptive and all different dynamics of sexual relationships. But really, so often in couples that we see, we got one person who’s more the initiator generally and the other person tends to be more receptive.

Laurie Watson [00:01:37]:

Yes.

George Faller [00:01:37]:

Right. And we’re just trying to have a conversation to help people appreciate both sides of this. They both bring in something so important. And what happens with the negative cycle is both sides really don’t understand the other side, or worse, start to pathologize the other side. That’s what so often I see the person who is more receptive starts to see the initiating person as sex crazed and so focused on their orgasms that they’re not. And the person on the initiating side sees the receptive person as cold and frigid and never wanting to initiate.

Laurie Watson [00:02:13]:

They just don’t like sex.

George Faller [00:02:14]:

They don’t like sex. And both of those extreme positions are pretty offline. It’s just they don’t understand that person’s way of kind of feeling safe sexually or what they do. So I think it’d be a good conversation for us. What do you think?

Laurie Watson [00:02:28]:

Okay, let’s do this.

George Faller [00:02:29]:

All right.

Laurie Watson [00:02:30]:

I had this client who they didn’t have sex very frequently, and his experience was she didn’t like sex. And her experience was he doesn’t initiate. And after treating them for a while, one of the things I became aware of was like, I asked him how he had initiated in the past and there was this sense of, oh, it’s kind of spontaneous combustion. We just kind of come at each other and that was what he was looking for. But really and truly, as I explored a little bit further, I began to realize he was a receptive desire kind of person. He had never labeled it that way. He had never seen it, and she had absolutely not seen it. And she was following a female script that says, I’m supposed to be asked. And I would say most women think they’re supposed to be asked to have sex, and so they would never imagine initiating it. And so women, I think women, especially women my age and even young women, George, I don’t think they see themselves quite as initiators. So we were stuck here. He was angry because they weren’t having sex. And I’m like, okay, well, how often do you initiate? And he’s like, never. And I realized he was waiting for that spontaneity that they both looked at each other across the room and came together, which did happen for them when they were young. But really and truly, his fantasies were along the line of her reaching over her starting to take off his clothes, her being very aggressive, touching his genitals, like grabbing him. Right. That was his fantasy. And I’m like, have you ever communicated that? And he’s like, no, just never had thought to communicate that. And I think that it was so different than the average male who is reaching out and touching and talking and joking and bringing it to her mind.

George Faller [00:04:45]:

Anyway, I’m always trying to break down the dynamics between how organic is it physiological versus psychogenic, right? And a lot of times men, because of testosterone, fall into the role of initiated because it just organically. The chemistry of the testosterone puts that in that position.

Laurie Watson [00:05:06]:

They feel it.

George Faller [00:05:07]:

Right? But there are a lot of women that psychogenically have kind of developed so many strengths and ways of kind of turning themselves on that they become that spontaneous initiator in their relationship. And you’re saying the same thing with men, that they just learn to become more receptive psychogenically because of their experiences. So there’s no right or wrong, and we probably all do some of both. But really to help people understand get clear about what is your primary style and what is your partner and how do you appreciate the gifts in both of those styles and what are some of the challenges that can just give us more of a platform to come together.

Laurie Watson [00:05:50]:

Exactly. I love what you just said because, like, this man, for him, I think there was this big, real exciting moment when she came toward him, and that’s what he was waiting for, to tell him she wants sex. And he wasn’t quite as willing to risk rejection. And I think for some women, they’ve learned to kind of focus on the erotic. And I honestly, this is how women have libido, George. They have libido when they learn to incorporate a life that includes listening for, thinking about erotic.

George Faller [00:06:34]:

Know, I love that you’re a champion of that that’s that psychogenic kind of development that you need to kind of be intentional. If you want your libido to kind of grow and to kind of stay strong, you got to put the work in. And a lot of women that are in the role of the initiated, they’ve done that work right. They’ve had success. Success breeds more wanting to have success. They like who they are sexually they grow that bottom you can feel the momentum right in that.

Laurie Watson [00:07:03]:

Yes. And I would probably distinguish success from how exciting life becomes internally from necessarily success in getting your partner to respond. Because sexual pursuing women often do are paired with men sometimes that are not as responsive but there’s an internal success. Isn’t life just better when you imagine the electricity about the first touch or you have a fantasy about taking your partner’s clothes off or what they would feel if you grab their ass? That’s just exciting and I think that for me a song comes on and it’s maybe a high school or a college song and I remember who I was crazy about at that moment. Those memories come back. I think that consciously I let that happen and then my life is so much more exciting it’s like why would you ever let go of that spice? But I will remember a time and I’ll say there was a time that I was and I’ve said this on the podcast before I was in my thirty s and just drowning in children and probably things were not that great with my husband sexually. And I was feeling pretty frumpy, and I went to Home Depot, and I was wearing my husband’s leather jacket and leggings. And I like my legs. That’s one of my best parts and I just remember seeing a couple men sort of glance at me and it wasn’t exciting that other men looked at me. That’s not what I’m saying. It retriggered me. It was like oh my God. Yes, this is the part of the world that I love. And from that point forward there was this brief kind of housewife moment that I was not as in tune with this part of myself and it just like boom, turned on again. And I’m like this infuses my life, the sexuality of it being aware of myself as a sexual being not even taking an object of desire, right? I mean, sometimes the fantasy of an object is very exciting and I say object because I don’t think you need to fantasize about the guy next door to be sexual. In fact, I think sometimes fantasizing about somebody you know, is for me personally it’s damaging because you change the relationship with that person. I mean, I’m not against fantasy, I think fantasy is really great but I think sometimes you can personalize it in a way that messes up your relationship with somebody. So that’s not good in my mind but I think being aware of yourself as an erotic being and all the stimuli that comes at you and just going oh yeah, that is so great.

George Faller [00:10:14]:

Well, we’re a bit biased, right? We’re both sexual pursuers from different perspective. You’ve developed that probably psychologically through intentionality and all these years of focusing on it. Mine’s probably more driven by testosterone, right?

Laurie Watson [00:10:30]:

Regardless, God loves you. I want to have that experience. I want to be full of testosterone.

George Faller [00:10:35]:

But because we’re in the pursuer role.

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George Faller [00:11:07]:

We often pathologize our partners or people in the receptive role. And I think trying to appreciate what it’s like when you don’t have that drive to initiate and you still put your body in a situation where it will be receptive and not knowing if it’s going to I mean, that’s quite a beautiful thing to do for the relationship and to do for yourself and your partner.

Laurie Watson [00:11:32]:

It’s a beautiful risk.

George Faller [00:11:33]:

It’s a beautiful risk and it’s a dangerous risk, right? Because if your body doesn’t come online, you’re going to disappoint your partner, you’re going to get frustrated with yourself. You could traumatize the experience by putting your body in a place where it doesn’t want to be. Some bad things could happen. And yet who’s seeing that? Who’s helping those receptive people put words to that, right? The initiators are so caught up in their own kind of drive and want like, we get a bit tunnel vision with that. We don’t have appreciation for that partner on the other end who’s kind of putting themselves in a situation. So I think that’s where I always try to remind myself that, wait a second, this receptivity is a beautiful thing. It’s actually harder to do, I think, than the initiator who’s kind of got all the stuff that’s driving it.

Laurie Watson [00:12:23]:

Yeah, I agree with you, but I want to distinguish we’re not talking about the withdrawing moment. We’re also talking about the person who does get turned on receptively. So when they’re ignited by that desiring other, something turns them on. So let’s come back, talk about reception and how that switch gets flipped for them in a really positive way. The ZOC Doc app so cool, you guys. So many people call me too and say, is this normal? And it’s something that just checking in with a therapist or a doctor. If you’re worried about a symptom, I know you need help and you want help right away. And ZocDoc is the app for you to figure this out quickly because Zoctalk has thousands of medical professionals on there and they listen like a friend, but they really give you the expert care that you need. Don’t wait around when you’re worried about something. Go to Zoctalk.com. It’s the only free app that lets you find and book a doctor whose patient review takes your insurance, is available when you need them, and basically, they treat every condition under the sun. It’s no more Dr. Roulette scouring the Internet for questionable reviews. With ZocDoc, you have a trusted guide to connect you to your favorite doctor who you haven’t even met yet. Millions of people use ZocDoc’s free app to find and book that doctor in their neighborhood. Go to ZocDoc.com foreplay and download the ZocDoc app for free. Then find a top rated doctor today, and many are available, as I said, within 24 hours. That’s ZocDoc.com foreplay. ZocDoc.com Foreplay. We are doing a couple’s retreat on September eigth, so please keep that in mind in your schedule. For your fall schedule, we want to give you a heads up. We’re only doing one this year because our training schedule is getting crazy. But we would love to invite you to our couples retreat on September eigth. It’s by Zoom, and you can find it on our website. Fourplacextherapy.com.

George Faller [00:14:39]:

Nice. And we just completed Training Therapists two days. Right on sex. Had over 100 therapists. How much fun was that, Laurie, to just kind of, again, get all these questions? We don’t have all the answers, but we’re just again, that excitement is just trying to help us all get clear and clear and start leaning in this direction because it’s such a great need to help couples talk about their sex lives.

Laurie Watson [00:14:59]:

It was really fun, and we’re excited to do it again for our couples, we always have fun with people who are wanting to work on their sex life and come to us. They’re always anxious, what is it going to look like? And I’m glad to email you a little bit about that talk with you so you can get comfy and who.

George Faller [00:15:18]:

Don’T want to be comfy, right? Yeah. Again, I like the clarity. Lori, as you’re trying to say, this is actually how they get turned on. This isn’t just they don’t have this their body just needs kind of that interest to kind of queue it up to kind of get it going.

Laurie Watson [00:15:39]:

Yes. There’s a researcher, Meredith Chivers, and a big New York Times article called What Do Women Want? And they know a lot of sex researchers, and she’s phenomenal. And she said that being desired for women is the orgasm. And, I mean, obviously there are men who have receptive desire, and I would honestly think my husband has more receptive desire. Like, he is more dependent on feeling like, I think he’s super attractive, that I want him, that I say sexual things to him about his body, about him. I mean, that’s a turn on for him. Like, the other day, he was complaining, oh, I’ve gained 15 pounds. And I’m like, Baby, don’t stop taking your clothes off. It’s like, I really want to be reassuring to him that I want to see him naked because I don’t want inhibition, his own self consciousness to stop. And so I offer to him this sense of you are desirable.

George Faller [00:16:46]:

To me, it’s a big difference between I really desire you. I like, as you say, that’s the turn on for so many women. That’s the orgasm. But what happens with the negative cycle is it becomes the initiator just wants an orgasm. It’s not like you become objectified, right? It’s like you’re horny, you want an orgasm. It’s not like you desire me. I could be anybody. And that’s where we start to pathologize the initiator, right, who’s trying to express you just want to get off. But sometimes that receptive person, again, hope you’re listening. And it can be either gender. That, that’s okay. That that’s how your body gets turned on. It’s not front and center. It’s not on your radar. You don’t see something immediately. Your body says, oh, I want that. It’s like you have to build a context that allows your body to kind of open up and to want it. If that’s the case, how do you set up more encounters where you can get the very thing that you need instead of this pressured thing that gets so often happen with the negative cycle, right?

Laurie Watson [00:17:53]:

And I think if you have receptive desire, it is important to remember that everybody wants to be desired at some point and needs that expressed. They need to feel desirable too. So, like you’re saying, it is work as a person with more receptive desire to build courage, to learn new skills, to think about offering compliments or touches or sexual innuendo that is deeply reassuring to your partner about your commitment to the erotic life with them. So yes, we’re not saying that you don’t have your own work to do and also knowing your body, knowing the turn ons and stuff, but I think dynamically, if us as sexual pursuers kind of accept some responsibility for it, it’s like, look at I’m blessed with this, or I’ve learned how to do whatever.

George Faller [00:18:57]:

I like that.

Laurie Watson [00:18:58]:

How can I lend my desire to my partner? How do I share that? And I certainly think Meredith Chivers point is women in general really, really like to be admired. They like to be told, you’re hot, I think you’re so beautiful. Like, look at your legs. Look at your breasts, look at I love the curve of your waist, or your ass is tight and hot. I don’t know. And I know some women say, oh my God, my husband says that all the time, and it’s such a turn off because that’s all he’s thinking about. So I do understand the risk as a pursuer for rejection for that. But overall, if you have an opportunity to convey to your partner that you think they’re beautiful, that dress looks nice on you. I mean, that is so weak. That is just so weak. It’s never going to get through to your partner that you feel desire so.

George Faller [00:20:02]:

I would say, Top, I want to steal that line. It would be so great for a sexual pursuer to imagine, and let me lend you some of my desire. I have something that makes me lucky or blessed that you don’t have, that doesn’t make you broken or anything else. It just means you need a different way of getting started than, yeah, right, and how do I help you get started? So we can meet with our different styles with each other and have great sex, which is what a lot of couples learn to do.

Laurie Watson [00:20:33]:

And George, think about when we’re all dating, there is so much intentionality about this, right? You take her out, you spend money, you dress up, you smell good, she’s dressed up. There’s innuendo, there’s expectation, there’s time. I think we were talking about it in our last podcast or recent one where I was saying, really the sexiest thing a man can say to a woman is just take your time. When he’s not in a rush, when he’s not in a rush for her body to get aroused quickly so that he can have his orgasm. I just think there’s this breath that happens. It’s like, okay, we have a long time, and if you’re taking her out on Thursday night and you got to get the babysitter home by eight and you got to get kids up by six, that’s not luxurious time. Whereas when we’re dating, we go out at 06:00 and there’s no end date, there’s usually no babysitter to get home.

George Faller [00:21:39]:

Damn kids. Again.

Laurie Watson [00:21:40]:

Damn kids. But there’s also psychologically, just like, it could last forever. And I think, okay, we can’t do that.

George Faller [00:21:50]:

What a better atmosphere for someone who’s receptive, who’s to not have that pressure, to have all that intentionality, those anticipations that are going to make it? How many pursuers if I had a doll of how many sexual pursuers that said, I just want my partner to initiate, it’s like the thing they ask for most. I know they don’t recognize how hard that ask is. And someone who’s receptive can do some of the work to grow that. But I think to flip that around and be so helpful for the sexual withdrawers who are more receptive, to really appreciate what the sexual pursuer is bringing, that this drive, this initiation, and they might be blessed that they have it, but what if they didn’t have it? For couples with two receptive people, they’re not having sex, right? This life force that’s trying to connect, it’s trying to come forward, like, how do we appreciate it? I think that really is like the mojo magic for a sexual pursuer to say, thank you for bringing this to us. It’s like, here comes the rainbow. Wait, do that again.

Laurie Watson [00:23:03]:

Is that an orgasm? Do that again.

George Faller [00:23:09]:

But it’s deep because it taps into so many levels. It’s not just the physical, it’s the emotional, it’s the spiritual. It’s a psychological saying, I see you. I see what you’re trying to do is healthy instead of what it’s doing is too much. Right. And I think every sexual pursuer deserves to hear that from their partner.

Laurie Watson [00:23:27]:

I do too.

George Faller [00:23:29]:

Yeah.

Laurie Watson [00:23:30]:

As a sexual pursuer, I do too. Yeah. Because it’s so reassuring and it doesn’t take much.

George Faller [00:23:39]:

Right. It’s just that intentionality to that sexual withdrawal to say, wait a second, I do see you. Normally. I can’t see that because I feel pressured. I’m trying to get myself in the mood. I’m like, I’m lost in me. Both people get lost in themselves. The pursuer is like, you’re not attracted to me. I’m the one that always has to do this. Both people get tunnel vision. Right? That’s fine. But at some point when you calm down, you listen to this podcast. I hope some of you are going to go home to your partner and say thank you. Thank you for bringing this to our relationship.

Laurie Watson [00:24:07]:

Yeah. Thank you for keeping us in the body as well as having an erotic life because it’s so important for the strength of our relationship to be connected, body and soul. Without body connection, we really are at Jeopardy. We can be tempted by others. We can just not have that grease that soothes and helps us get over the little irritants of the day. It’s so good for us to have sex. We’re more motivated to be patient if we’re a pursuer. If we’re having sex and people say, well, you should be patient anyway, or withdrawers often say that to their partners. Why should I have to give you sex to make you patient? It’s like, have you ever been hangry? Feeding a person who’s hangry helps them calm down. And I think there is essentially this part of the body that hormonally and with tension release, it impacts mood. We are creatures of body and soul. And so, yeah, an orgasm really does impact our soul as well. Our mood, our emotions and our heart.

George Faller [00:25:26]:

Beautiful. Well, here comes homework for our listeners. Okay, here comes my tactical brain that’s always trying to organize things. But two things I would love for our listeners to do. One, say thank you to your partner for their style, for what they bring to the relationship. Right. What a gift that is to feel seen and to be appreciated for who you are, how God made you. And two is then take ownership for when you get caught up in the negative cycle, how you wind up pathologizing the other person for the way they were made. How great would that be for a sexual pursuer to say, you know what? I’m sorry. When we get caught up in our thing that I start to see you as sexually broken or inadequate, I put all that pressure on you when you’re just okay to not be in a move and to want to be receptive. I mean, isn’t that a cool thing? To do. Or the flip side, for that sexual withdrawal to say I’m sorry that I feel pressured because of this cycle, that I often see you as too much, or just like just wanting sex for the orgasm and not seeing the help in what you’re doing. I take ownership for that, saying thank you and then taking ownership. Give it to me, baby.

Laurie Watson [00:26:35]:

Thanks for listening to us. Whoo.

George Faller [00:26:38]:

Keep it hot.

Joe Davis – Announcer [00:26:39]:

Call in your questions to the Foreplay Question voicemail dial eight three three my. Foreplay. That’s eight three three my. The number four play, and we’ll use the questions for our mailbag episodes. All content is for entertainment purposes only and should not be considered as a substitute for therapy by a licensed clinician or as medical advice from a doctor. This podcast is copyrighted by Foreplay Media.

Speaker Ads [00:27:03]:

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