Joe Davis – Announcer [00:00:00]:

The following content is not suitable for children.

Laurie Watson [00:00:02]:

George we’re looking for common ground.

George Faller [00:00:04]:

Yeah, baby.

Laurie Watson [00:00:05]:

We got to find a way to see our partner and their struggles and their strengths and them to see us. Where is that common ground?

George Faller [00:00:16]:

Amen.

Laurie Watson [00:00:19]:

Welcome to foreplay sex therapy. I’m Dr. Laurie Watson, your sex therapist.

George Faller [00:00:24]:

And I’m George Faller, a couple’s therapist.

Laurie Watson [00:00:26]:

We are here to talk about sex.

George Faller [00:00:28]:

Our mission is to help couples talk about sex in ways that incorporate their body, their mind, and their hearts.

Laurie Watson [00:00:36]:

And we have a little bit of fun doing it. Right.

George Faller [00:00:38]:

G listen and let’s change some relationships. I think that’s one of the hardest things for couples, right, is to see your partner’s perspective, especially when threatened. We know the brain gets narrow. We focus on our own survival and protection. So it’s really hard to see our partner’s perspective when we’re in places of know. But I think what’s been fun is we’ve been playing around, Laurie and I, no pun intended. With both this sexual and the emotional cycle, so many couples switch positions. So it’s a great way of finding common ground to recognize.

Laurie Watson [00:01:15]:

So if we start wait, there’s so many innuendos here. Switch positions. Wait. Talk about what we mean.

George Faller [00:01:22]:

My brain is switching positions right now. So if we take the emotional cycle and we’re oversimplifying it but if we use an example of the female emotional pursuer who wants connection and gets frustrated when they’re shut out and tries to influence the outcome by pushing for conversations, pushing with advice, trying to get their partner to engage if they’re with that withdrawn husband being in these conversations, every conversation is a fight. It’s a training to not want to emotionally engage. Why do these negative emotions? There’s no fixing it. It’s just like trying to get away from it becomes the go to move. There’s safety in calming things down. So most of our listeners are familiar with that negative emotional cycle, right? And it’s like they’re speaking different languages. The withdrawal is like, what is wrong with you? Can’t you see your anger is not constructive? Just stop it. Be more positive. And then a pursuer is like, can’t you see going away doesn’t solve anything? What is wrong with you? They’re on different planets. And I think all we got to do to get them to see they’re not so different after all. To find that common ground is let’s switch to the sexual cycle. In a sexual cycle, you start to see now that emotional, withdrawn husband who pulls away in a sexual cycle now becomes the pursuer. What is it like to try to initiate and be shut down, be rejected? Your partner not engaged. You can see how naturally that turns to frustration and trying to influence the outcome.

Laurie Watson [00:02:59]:

Exactly right.

George Faller [00:03:00]:

And then that female who’s the emotional pursuer is the sexual withdrawal.

Laurie Watson [00:03:05]:

And then you get blamed because you’re angry. It’s like, if you weren’t so angry I might want to have sex with you, or if you weren’t so angry, I might want to talk to you. And it’s like, you’re not talking to me, you’re not having sex with me. That’s why I’m so angry all the time. It’s just so frustrating.

George Faller [00:03:21]:

But what a great way for that emotional, withdrawn man to see to empathize better with the emotional pursuant wife who gets so frustrated that wants to influence the outcome. They’re doing the same thing in a sexual cycle. Can you read this book? How about you try initiating? They roll over and get angry. They have so many moves that are trying to motivate some kind of change because they need their partner to engage. So they’ll try laughing, they’ll try crying, they’ll try bribing, they’ll try manipulating. I mean, it’s just a resilient thing to do to try to get what your heart is looking for. They’re not so different after all.

Laurie Watson [00:03:58]:

Yeah. This is the common ground.

George Faller [00:04:00]:

This is the common ground.

Laurie Watson [00:04:01]:

This crisscross cycle, or when we’re in different positions in different cycles, that is the way that we can understand our partner.

George Faller [00:04:12]:

Exactly. And if we shift over to the sexual withdrawer who’s often that female emotional pursuer, can they tap into the side themselves that wants to get away from the pressure and the threat, like not having sex, postponing it to the next day, rolling over. Those are all strategies that it’s just immediately in the moment trying to not feel these bad feelings, like you’re failing, that there’s something wrong with you. It’s not so different from your husband in the emotional cycle.

Laurie Watson [00:04:42]:

Exactly. Can she see what it feels like to want to pull back?

George Faller [00:04:48]:

Yeah. It has nothing to do with not caring. It’s just what you do in the moment where you just don’t know what to do. And staying engaged feels like it’s only going to make things worse. So there’s safety in going away. And then when you go away, your partner only gets more frustrated and starts yelling like you don’t care and you’re not trying. And it’s like you know your heart that’s not true, but you’re not really sure what to do with that.

Laurie Watson [00:05:10]:

Exactly.

George Faller [00:05:12]:

So really I like to simplify it and pay attention to who’s the person initiating that’s that driving energy, that’s pushing, and who’s the person who’s kind of more receptive. If the timing is right, they will respond. But if it’s not and they feel the pressure, they’re going to disengage. There’s beauty in both of those moves and in that common ground, they often shift ground. But I love trying to get like so many men in the emotional cycle are actually receptive, like their wives are in the sexual cycle. It’s like they’re not going to initiate emotional conversation. If my wife wants to talk about what a bad day she had and how hard things are, I’m going to listen to that. I’m going to try to respond. I am very receptive in an emotional conversation, but initiating it, that tends to be not so much a go to move of a lot of emotional withdrawals.

Laurie Watson [00:06:06]:

Yeah, they’re not going to bring up their bad day, necessarily. It’s like, I lived that day, I had that day. That part of the day is over.

George Faller [00:06:13]:

Right.

Laurie Watson [00:06:13]:

I really want to stay in it. I want to come home. I want to relax. I want to go into the next thing that feels better.

George Faller [00:06:19]:

I got past it. Why the hell do I want to go back into it? Right? That’s their mindset.

Laurie Watson [00:06:24]:

But as the emotional pursuer, right. It’s like you so want your partner to bring their troubles, whatever is going on, to you.

George Faller [00:06:33]:

I love it. Laurie, what you’re doing? What are you asking for? You just want your emotional withdrawal to initiate. Right. It’s not so different than what your sexual pursuer is looking for you in a sexual relationship just to initiate. Because when our partner initiate, it makes it feel like it’s just not a one way street. It feels like they’re coming into the relationship because they want it, too. And that’s so important. But this is the common ground that I think so many couples miss.

Laurie Watson [00:07:02]:

Yeah, exactly. In girlfriend world, one of the places that, you know, you’ve shifted from perhaps a friendly, warm relationship into a deeper place is when you start telling each other your secrets, your real frustrations, the things that you’re not so proud of. Whatever it is, it’s like that little bit of shift into, now I’m going to dare to tell you something that I don’t tell everybody else. That is bonding. That is the sense of like, oh, this girlfriend and I, we’re getting deep, we’re getting close. And I think that that’s what the emotional pursuer is looking for, is that shift where their partner initiates, hey, I got to tell you a little something that I’m not so proud of or I was angry about, or something not necessarily even about you, but just about their world.

George Faller [00:07:51]:

Yeah, exactly. So if you tap into that side of yourself in the emotional cycle, even with your girlfriends, that says, I know when someone else initiates and risks, that feels so good. It takes the relationship to a different level. If you tap into that part of yourself that longs for the initiation, and then you just pause and you walk on that common ground and you go, oh, so this is why my partner so often wants me to do that. In the sexual cycle, there’s something about the initiating that takes my partner to that deeper place that makes my partner feel like we’re not in this alone.

Laurie Watson [00:08:29]:

Exactly. That engagement, it isn’t even just initiating and having sex. It’s engagement sexually. It’s like throughout the day that you say something sexy, you say something flirty, it’s like starting to engage the relationship in a sexual way.

George Faller [00:08:46]:

Beautiful. So how do we push for that common ground. Like when I’m working with a couple and they’re working with the emotional cycle, I might just say pause. All right, let’s switch roles and talk about the sexual cycle. Can you see how familiar that is, this position that you don’t seem to get, that seems so alien. It’s not so alien if you allow yourself to tap into that.

Laurie Watson [00:09:13]:

I love that you’re doing that. It’s like you’re getting them right in their body, what they’re feeling. And then you’re like, OK, flip. Now see the same sort of issue in the other cycle. That is smart.

George Faller [00:09:25]:

George Fowler well, hey, when you can see people and our listeners, maybe you can’t switch because you’re too triggered, that’s fine. But at some point you got to be able to maybe you walk away from each other, maybe have a fight. But when you try to repair that ability to come back and maybe you’re sitting alone in your room, can you do that yourself and just think, let’s switch roles here. Can I get my partner’s perspective? Can my partner get my perspective? Because if you can see the common ground, it’s so much easier to bridge that distance. We know what empathy is. To be empathetic, you have to tap into something similar if you’re going to join somebody in that space. And so many partners want to do it, they just can’t do it. I think this is a great way of bridging that and allowing you to feel into your partner’s world.

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Laurie Watson [00:10:46]:

And I was thinking about, what do we do with the congruent? Emotional pursuers and sexual pursuers or emotional withdrawals and sexual withdrawals? And I was just thinking, because I.

George Faller [00:10:55]:

Am congruent, and by congruent, you mean.

Laurie Watson [00:10:59]:

Both position in both ways. Both ways, right. I want more emotional engagement. I want more sexual engagement. But I was thinking with some relationships, I don’t want that. Especially I’m thinking emotionally. I have a girlfriend. We go for a walk and she gets her appointment book out afterwards and says, well, when are we going to do this again? And I just feel strangled by that. It’s like, oh my God, I barely have time to breathe in my life, let alone set up another regular time to meet with you. It’s like that sense of being strangled. Even though in my own relationship, I’m more of the wanting person, I think I can use that in another relationship. That same empathy for what it feels like when you’re pressed or pressured. It doesn’t have to be just in partnership.

George Faller [00:11:52]:

It’s great you’re expanding the frame. In all our relationships, we probably will switch some roles a little bit more. Think about growing up. My dad was never around, so I pursued that relationship. My mom was on top of me all the time, so I withdrew. Right. There’s no right or wrong, but just to tap into something that’s familiar to what your partner is doing, just so you can relate to it a little bit more. Well, let’s come back and we’ll talk about some of these strategies with the congruent, the same patterns or the hybrid, whether you switch roles just to, again, get better at this common ground.

Laurie Watson [00:12:27]:

Okay.

George Faller [00:12:31]:

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George Faller [00:13:10]:

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George Faller [00:13:45]:

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Laurie Watson [00:14:01]:

We are doing a couple’s retreat on September eigth, so please keep that in mind in your schedule. For your fall schedule, we want to give you a heads up. We’re only doing one this year because our training schedule is getting crazy. But we would love to invite you to our couples retreat on September eigth. It’s by Zoom, and you can find it on our website. Fourplacextherapy.com.

George Faller [00:14:24]:

Nice. And we just completed Training therapists two days right on sex. Had over 100 therapists. How much fun was that? Laurie to just kind of, again, get all these questions. We don’t have all the answers, but we’re just again, that excitement is just trying to help us all get clear and clear and start leaning in this direction because it’s such a great need to help couples talk about their sex lives.

Laurie Watson [00:14:45]:

It was really fun, and we’re excited to do it again for our couples. We always have fun with people who are wanting to work on their sex life and come to us. They’re always anxious, what is it going to look like? And I’m glad to email you a little bit about that talk with you so you can get comfy.

George Faller [00:15:02]:

And who don’t want to be comfy, right? A lot of our listeners, male listeners that are male sexual pursuers, are always writing in all the time, say like, what can I do? What can I do to get my partner to sexually reengage? Reengage, right.

Laurie Watson [00:15:23]:

We get three of those letters a week.

George Faller [00:15:26]:

Okay. And so often they’re focusing on changing their partner. Can they tap into that energy to say, that’s why your female partner is pushing for any emotional cycle. They want you to show interest. They want things outside the bedroom that show them that they really matter. They’re looking for the same thing in conversations, in this emotional bond that you’re looking for in a sexual so instead of saying, what are some behavioral things I can do to push my partner differently? How about try it? Try tapping into, oh, this is what you want in conversations. Okay. What do you think that would be like to get the sexual withdrawer to reengage when you start to speak their love language or the emotional bond?

Laurie Watson [00:16:17]:

Yeah, that would be a beautiful gift. If the emotional withdrawer says, my partner has been begging for this part of me to come forward toward them, and I just give that to them, I think that would change the emotional connection. I think as a sexual pursuer, sometimes this part of us says, I’ll do this for you if you’ll do that for me. And then we kind of set our partner up. I’ve been revealing myself emotionally. I’ve taken care of your emotional needs. Now, when are you going to turn that around and see my sexual needs? And then it falls flat. It’s almost like when you decide to change, you have to make a unilateral decision that says, I’m going to do the thing that makes my partner feel loved. End of story. Otherwise, it does become quid pro quo and it does become pressure. Like, I took out the garbage. Why aren’t you jumping into bed? You have to decide. My partner needs love. I still need love sexually. I’m not getting that. I can’t forget that. But I’m not going to hinge these two things together.

George Faller [00:17:26]:

Exactly. If we look at those love languages, if we just oversimplify the sexual cycles, looking for that touch, the emotional cycle is looking for that quality engagement and interest. Right. That quality time. They switch roles. The touch person initiates in sex because that’s what they’re looking for. But they’re receptive in the quality time conversations. And then the common ground, the other side, that emotional pursuer pushes for the quality time, the emotional engagement, but is receptive towards the touch part of it. So that switching of roles. Let’s talk about it. Let’s be this couple and let’s see if we can have a conversation around just acknowledging this awareness of the other person’s role. So if I’ll be the emotional okay. Who is the sexual pursuer? Right. So you’re going to have to be the sexual withdrawal, which is not an easy role for Laurie to take on, but she’s worked with plenty of them and that emotional.

Laurie Watson [00:18:30]:

Right.

George Faller [00:18:31]:

So, jane, I Was Reading This Book by Lori Watson and George Faller called Common Grounds. And it’s interesting that I guess all these years I’ve been pushing you to have know and I’ve known you feel pressure. We’ve been able to talk about it a bit, but I’ve never really gotten how that part of you that pulls away because you don’t want to have more of that negative that is so much of what happens to me in the emotional cycle. It’s like, I don’t know what to do. I don’t want to make things worse. So I kind of like, freeze and I kind of go away just to let this thing blow over. And I’m sorry, I get so judgmental of you when it’s happening sexually. It’s like, what is wrong with you? I can’t really get why you do it. And I think I’m getting it in a different way now because it’s exactly what I do. So I guess I’m sorry. Like, I get so frustrated with you. I hope you can get so frustrated with me when I do it in the emotional I really I really do get you’re going away in a very different way now.

Laurie Watson [00:19:42]:

Yeah. I so appreciate that, Joe, that you’ve been thinking about that. I think I used to get really frustrated with you in the emotional cycle. I try to remember what it was like for you as a kid and what you told me about your mom always being on you. And I just imagine sometimes when I’m coming at you, it’s like all that stuff flies at you and that’s why you back up. And I try really hard to be patient because I’m trying to tell myself it’s not that you don’t love me, it’s not that you don’t want to talk to me. It’s that you’re just having this automated response about getting uptight with me because sometimes we break through now. And so I do feel better and I get it. It’s like yeah, sexually, I suppose I do feel that same sort of way that push that pressure, especially when it comes at me when I’m not in the mood or I’m not in that moment, and then I don’t know what to do. So probably for you, you experience this freeze in me that’s not going to feel that good. It’s really not about you. It’s not like, if the moment were right, I would still want to do it. I would. But it seems to me we don’t sink. I don’t know.

George Faller [00:21:07]:

Yeah. And do you get then, for me how that turns into my anger? Kind of like what happens to you, right, when you’re initiating any other partner doesn’t kind of meet you.

Laurie Watson [00:21:19]:

There I do get that it would be so frustrating, especially when you’re looking at it thinking this is a great moment or your body’s already feeling desire and I say no. I do appreciate that you initiate. I know that’s vulnerable and I hate that I say no and you feel bad and you feel rejected. I’m not sure how to fix it, but yeah, I get it. That cannot feel good.

George Faller [00:21:48]:

Yeah. And as I tap into that part of myself that just gets frustrated by that happening, like, I understand how that similar thing happens to you when you just want to unload about your day and I’m just too busy and I don’t want to engage because I don’t want to have to kind of take on more negativity. I’m saturated with what’s going on, but when I do that, I leave you alone. That word rejected is not what I’m trying to do. But it’s kind of what happens. That rejection feeling that I feel sexually is so often what you feel in these kind of conversations we don’t have.

Laurie Watson [00:22:20]:

Yeah. And I suppose when I feel like you’re too busy, it’s the same sort of thing. You feel like you’re not important. Everything else is important. I got to get all this stuff done and it’s like, really? Do I really have to fold the laundry or get this little piece of work done? I’m sure that sends you a message that you’re not important and that our sex life isn’t important. That’s got to hurt.

George Faller [00:22:47]:

It’s so cool we’re having this conversation because I do the same thing. When you want to talk about anything, I’d rather just check the sports score or do something, some emails instead of just talking about the kids or money or whatever. Heck, that’s going to probably lead to a fight. So I just get distracted. I kind of go elsewhere. When you do that sexually, I want to bang my head against the wall. I’m like, why are we talking about the freaking these logistical checklist things. This is our time to be with each other. But it’s the same exact thing.

Laurie Watson [00:23:20]:

I hear it. I hear you. It is, I’m sure. Bang your head against the wall and you do it again. You keep coming for me. And I worry, like sometimes I worry you’re not going to keep coming for me. You’re just going to give up on me. And I do need all that energy that you bring. I really do. I hate that I block it sometimes I think that there’s this voice inside that is so responsible all the time, has to get everything done that I don’t even listen to my inside sometimes. That maybe it is time to take a break and just have a little bit of fun or pleasure or something. I don’t know how to touch that. But I do appreciate you bringing it to my attention.

George Faller [00:24:15]:

That is me initiating an emotional conversation, isn’t it? Is this an emotional conversation we’re having?

Laurie Watson [00:24:21]:

This is a totally emotional conversation.

George Faller [00:24:24]:

I have tapped into that part of you that when you say, is there something wrong with me? Because I don’t engage sexually the way I would hope to. That’s kind of how I feel in these emotional conversations. Is there something broken in me? Why do I not want to do this? Why is this so hard for me? I go to the same places where I start to feel like I’m a failure, and I feel pretty ineffective.

Laurie Watson [00:24:48]:

Yeah. Appreciate you saying that. There’s blocks in us. There’s blocks in you that are emotional. There’s blocks in me that are sexual.

George Faller [00:24:56]:

Yeah.

Laurie Watson [00:24:58]:

We got to figure this out. I need you to help me figure this out in me. Just this conversation feels so different absolutely. Than our angry conversation that we normally have. I don’t know. I’m sure there are blocks in me.

George Faller [00:25:14]:

We probably could talk about tomorrow. You think we’re alone time now or what? Now that you’re now that we’re emotionally connected, what do you think?

Laurie Watson [00:25:23]:

Yeah, I feel pretty emotional. That’s a good moment.

George Faller [00:25:27]:

Expect that move. Isn’t that a healthy thing? That when you start to feel closer that the sexual pursuer wants to initiate sex. That’s a beautiful thing. And if you feel pressures to what you are, you’re not in a mood. That makes total sense here, too, and we’re just trying to spark a conversation that most couples probably have never had. But if you do it, you’re probably going to recognize you’re not so different after all. Right. And we didn’t talk so much about when you’re in the same position, it’s a little bit harder. There’s a little bit more distance. Right. If you’re both a sexual pursuer and the emotional pursuer to get the value of the other person’s withdrawal, it might just be a little bit bigger of a right, which just means we need more practice and more of these conversations. But I like Lori’s advice. Think about any moments in your life where you did become that opposite person in that role. We’ve all do some of both. So the more we can tap into that other position that typically we don’t go to, it just creates more of that. Common ground.

Laurie Watson [00:26:23]:

Common ground.

George Faller [00:26:24]:

Got to love it.

Laurie Watson [00:26:25]:

Thanks for listening.

George Faller [00:26:27]:

Keep it hot, y’all.

Joe Davis – Announcer [00:26:29]:

Call in your questions to the Foreplay Question voicemail dial eight, three, three, my. Foreplay. That’s eight, three, three, my. The number four play, and we’ll use the questions for our mailbag episodes. All content is for entertainment purposes only and should not be considered as a substitute for therapy by a licensed clinician or as medical advice from a doctor. This podcast is copyrighted by Foreplay Media.

Speaker Ads [00:26:53]:

Hi, I’m Sarah May, and I’m the host of your new favorite show, help Me, Be Me. It’s a self help podcast for people who hate self help. Help Me, Be Me is full of practical tools to help you overcome a variety of emotional challenges delivered in a way that’s caring but frank. So if that sounds up your alley, I would invite you to check out Help Me Be Me on the Iheart app on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks.