Joe Davis – Announcer [00:00:00]:

The following content is not suitable for children.

George Faller [00:00:02]:

Serious topic lack of attraction. Let’s do it.

Laurie Watson [00:00:08]:

Laurie OOH, let’s do it. Welcome to foreplay sex therapy. I’m Dr. Laurie Watson, your sex therapist.

George Faller [00:00:18]:

And I’m George Faller, your couple’s therapist.

Laurie Watson [00:00:20]:

We are here to talk about sex.

George Faller [00:00:22]:

Our mission is to help couples talk about sex in ways that incorporate their body, their mind, and their hearts.

Laurie Watson [00:00:30]:

And we have a little bit of fun doing it. Right?

George Faller [00:00:32]:

G. Listen and let’s change some relationships. All right, well, before we do that, let’s do some business. We got lots going on here, Laurie.

Laurie Watson [00:00:41]:

I know it. So we’re in Philadelphia in October, which is so cool.

George Faller [00:00:47]:

October 4 and fifth.

Laurie Watson [00:00:49]:

Yeah. Teaching about sex up there. That’ll be cool to see people in person.

George Faller [00:00:54]:

It’s always so much fun to spend two days talking about sex, right? Answering questions, finding answers. We learn so much during these two days and it really helps us in our podcast and coming up with ideas and topics and leading edges, places we need to grow.

Laurie Watson [00:01:11]:

It does. It’s always fun, I think more fun in person, for sure.

George Faller [00:01:17]:

We also have been nominated for the Podcast Award, right?

Laurie Watson [00:01:21]:

Yes, for the people.

George Faller [00:01:22]:

We need you all to vote. Let’s put this on the radar.

Laurie Watson [00:01:26]:

Podcastawards.com and we’re under the health section. It is, we got to say, a little bit of complicated to get your they ask for your email and confirmation and all that, but please do that. We would love to be recognized there. So podcastawards.com for the People’s Choice Awards this year and we want to thank our patrons. You guys have been steadfast supporters of us and we are so grateful for your help. If you want to support us directly, you can go to our patrons page. Just fourplacextherapy.com. And we have a link there for the patrons page. And we’re just very appreciative of many of you have been supporting us for years and years and years. And George and I are doing some new things these days. We’re starting to write a book and that’s going to take some of our time and away from time that we could do clinical work. But we really feel like it’s important.

George Faller [00:02:20]:

To do that sacrificing of time to get out a message and to support each other doing that. Isn’t that pretty cool. So you can support us in a lot of ways, right? Giving us reviews, being able to nominate or vote for the podcast, becoming patrons, it’s all just ways of joining us and we really do deeply appreciate it. No pressure here. We recognize people are all different places in their life. But for those of you who can invest, we are super thankful for and.

Laurie Watson [00:02:51]:

You know, you can share specific episodes with, you know, those little three dots. If you are listening to one of our episodes and you know, my friend Susan would really like this, please just send that episode to her. And that really helps us just exposure in terms of what we’re doing. I think this really that there’s very few podcasts out there that are helping people with concrete strategies in the sexual attachment and the emotional attachment cycles and how to get through that, how to form a really strong bond. So that’s our mission, and we’re grateful if you would join with us. And I’m hoarse this morning. I sound terrible. I even sound terrible to myself.

George Faller [00:03:36]:

That’s your sexy voice coming out.

Laurie Watson [00:03:38]:

Oh, thank you. Gee, okay, it’s all good now. It’s all good. It’s my sexy voice.

George Faller [00:03:45]:

Well, let’s get back on topic. Laurie, what do you think?

Laurie Watson [00:03:48]:

Okay, back to people who get married without sexual attraction.

George Faller [00:03:54]:

Yeah, I mean, I’ve had a bunch of clients that maybe a little older in life, they’ve had some fun and they’re looking to settle down, and they find that partner who just everyone likes, easy to get along with. It’s going to make a great parent. Your family likes them, your friends like them. You’re good teammates, you have good conversations, you have a really good friendship. And that’s so important. That’s kind of where you want to evolve to. It’s kind of what you’re looking for to raise a family. And some of those people find in the bedroom, there’s not that much going on. So what do we do with that? The lack of attraction?

Laurie Watson [00:04:38]:

Yeah, I mean, first I would say contextually, people have only married for love, for kind of a short period of time. I think marriage was about an alliance and also having children and stuff. I can’t speak to how their sex life was, but I have a cousin who was married in an arranged marriage, and she knows lots and lots of people in an arranged marriage, and apparently they made it work, they made it hot without really knowing the person and without necessarily marrying because they were attracted. Lots of cultures do that and they have stable sexual lives. So I think there are ways to grow in sexual dynamics. I don’t know if over time, you think this is the most attractive person in the world. I think if you’re a sexual being, you notice other people who are attractive or more mean. It’s just a crazy game if you’re chasing that. And I do think, George, that with social media and with app dating, a lot of people are chasing the most attractive partner. I had a guy who told me when he’s scrolling through dating apps, women who are attractive and who would be the absolute bell of the ball at a cocktail party because of being vivacious and attractive and a good conversationalist, he’s like, swipe, swipe. Because it’s like but maybe there’s one even more attractive out there. I do think our culture has gone a little crazy on that as the highest value. I like that, I guess, too. I would imagine that, I don’t know, deep intimacy, connection and skillful love making could make sex still pretty good, even if you are not as attracted to them.

George Faller [00:06:42]:

There’s a sentiment out there that if there is no attraction, it’s like the deathbed of a relationship. I think both of us land on the more hopeful side. There’s so many parts of us that we don’t know about in the bedroom that if you could tap into that, who knows what’s possible? It’s like a couple. When I see a couple in distress, I remind myself I’m just seeing a glimpse of who these people are. They’re in defensive, reactive places. Who knows what they’re capable of? If they’re safe and feeling super connected? So that’s my feeling around the bedroom. Right. You might not be attracted to the person you have because of how they’re protecting themselves or showing themselves or how you’re protecting yourself. To me, the biggest thing is that somebody’s naming that and being honest with it. They’re putting the problem on a table, and you have to put the problem in the table that protects your partner. I mean, nobody wants to hear, I’m not attracted to you sexually. Right? That’s got to be a punch in the stomach. But how can you be honest and say, hey, listen, I don’t find myself so engaged here, so attractive? The environment we’ve created around sex is just not kind of doing it for me. I’m sure it’s not doing it for you. Can we have a conversation around it? I mean, I think that’s the hardest thing because so many people I see, they keep it as a secret. They don’t feel attracted, and they try to white knuckle themselves into just continuing to have sex with this person, hoping something’s going to change. And at some level, a partner must pick up on it, too. And it’s just this is what leads couples to stop having sex, and they can’t talk about it.

Laurie Watson [00:08:20]:

Yeah. And such a difficult thing to talk about. Especially, I think. I mean, what you said feels more hopeful. Like, look at I’m not feeling that much chemistry between us. Maybe I think that’s very different than, I don’t find you attractive.

George Faller [00:08:39]:

I like that reframe changing chemistry.

Laurie Watson [00:08:41]:

I don’t feel that much chemistry between us.

George Faller [00:08:44]:

Can I just pause you there? Just because I want everyone to hear that that’s a good change. Reframe instead of use, I’m not attracted, talk about the chemistry. Right. That makes it something between us instead of something within you.

Laurie Watson [00:08:57]:

I like that change and maybe something we can figure out together. I guess I just imagine if people are really sensuous and they’re free and they’re uninhibited, they’re willing coming to bed, willing to see what happens, to open their heart and their body. I guess I just imagine people can find a way to have great sex. I understand some people are really visual, and they want that, but then I think, okay, but you married without that. I mean, you knew that going in. And so that kind of, to me is on them. It’s on them to then do something about that, to create that. If they’ve made a promise and they’ve said, I love everything about you, but not so hot in bed. Okay, then how do we make it hot in bed? Although I do have a supervisor and she really only says this about men. She’s a big sex therapist supervisor and she says, yeah, if a man is not attracted or loses attracted, that’s the ballgame. I mean, just total boom.

George Faller [00:10:15]:

That’s a little pessimistic view of things, don’t you?

Laurie Watson [00:10:19]:

She’s not working on foreplay every week trying to help people, I think.

George Faller [00:10:25]:

Well, it does say this is a serious problem. Worse if you start to feel revolt, if you start to feel repulsed.

Laurie Watson [00:10:35]:

Disgust.

George Faller [00:10:35]:

Disgust. And then you see that you’re a super fit person and your partner loses, doesn’t work on that anymore. And you can see people change. They kind of grow apart. But it’s a huge problem. And that’s why we’re just trying to give people a chance to talk about that.

Laurie Watson [00:10:53]:

Yeah, exactly. I’m sure there are changes and things that really impact your sense of attraction to someone.

George Faller [00:11:02]:

Yeah. I was working with a couple where they were both athletes. They met in college as athletes. Physicality was incredibly important to both of them. They spent both hours a day working out. And fast forward a couple of years. The wife gets pregnant, has a couple of kids, gets caught up in taking care of the kids, stops working out, body changes with pregnancy. He continues to work out like he always does. He can be in a magazine, he looks so good and his wife’s no longer there. Right. And all of a sudden he comes into therapy and he’s like, it doesn’t do it for me anymore. And it’s like.

Laurie Watson [00:11:42]:

Painful. I also wonder though, does he say, hey, look at I’m coming home at four to babysit the children. So you can just go to the gym till six and I will make dinner while you’re gone. I’ll watch the children make dinner. You go to the gym for 2 hours. I kind of wonder about the way they’ve arranged their lives. Men, I think, oftentimes have a better ability to take autonomy. And they’re like, I’m just doing my thing. This is what’s important to me, I just do it. And the woman is like suddenly caught in this web of many different important things. I do remember as a young woman, I’ll just end on this before we take our break. And it was so hard for me to take the children to the gym babysitting because my children had difficulty separating. So they’d cry and then also they’d get sick. They got sick at the drop of a hat. So exposing them to a bunch of other children, it was like, okay, I’ll go to the gym this day and then I’m not going to go to the gym for a month because they’re going to be sick and I’m going to be sick. It was a bad setup.

George Faller [00:12:54]:

It’s always more complicated than it looks.

Laurie Watson [00:12:56]:

Okay, let’s come back and help people.

George Faller [00:13:03]:

Laurie we know great lovers are intentional. They bring playfulness curiosity into the bedroom so they can relax. And we got a great product to help do that for you.

Laurie Watson [00:13:15]:

Fouria, right? Their sex oil and their awakened product is helpful for orgasms. If you want a bigger or better orgasm, fora is where it’s at. They use all natural plant based ingredients to intensify sexual pleasure and also relieve discomfort. And I can totally see why that works, because it also just kind of helps get everything ready down there.

George Faller [00:13:39]:

Right. And when you can use both the awakened arousal oil and the sex oil, I mean, they do combine to pack.

Laurie Watson [00:13:47]:

A little boom, pack a little punch for the ultimate pleasure pregame. You really want to use it before you start, and then that kind of gets your body a little bit ready. So I fully endorse you to go ahead and treat yourself to more and deeper and fuller pleasure whenever you can find it, and as often as possible, of course. And you can start with the bottle of fourIA. fourIA is offering a special deal to our foreplay FAM. Get 20% off your first order by visiting foryawellness.com foreplay. Or just use the code Foreplay at checkout, and that’s foria Wellness.com foreplay for 20% off your first order. And I recommend trying their awaken arousal oil and sex oil, and you will thank us later. We are doing a couple’s retreat on September eigth, so please keep that in mind in your schedule. For your fall schedule, we want to give you a heads up. We’re only doing one this year because our training schedule is getting crazy. But we would love to invite you to our couples retreat on September eigth. It’s by Zoom, and you can find it on our website forplacesextherapy.com nice.

George Faller [00:14:58]:

And we just completed Training therapists two days right on sex. Had over 100 therapists. How much fun was that, laurie to just kind of, again, get all these questions? We don’t have all the answers, but we’re just again, that excitement is just trying to help us all get clearer and clear and start leaning in this direction because it’s such a great need to help couples talk about their sex lives.

Laurie Watson [00:15:20]:

It was really fun, and we’re excited to do it again for our couples. We always have fun with people who are wanting to work on their sex life and come to us. They’re always anxious, what is it going to look like? And I’m glad to email you a little bit about that talk with you so you can get comfy.

George Faller [00:15:37]:

Nice. Who don’t want to be comfy, right? All right. How are we going to help people here?

Laurie Watson [00:15:48]:

Laurie I think, well, you’re talking about talking about it and putting it on the table and how we do that in a kind way.

George Faller [00:15:56]:

Yes. You have to protect your partner. And there’s so much focus on the partner who’s not being attractive right. How that hurts their feelings. But to recognize the person that’s not finding the attraction, they’re hurting too.

Laurie Watson [00:16:10]:

Yeah.

George Faller [00:16:11]:

I mean, it sucks to find yourself with this really important way of connecting, and it’s hard to access. Right. It’s camouflaged with all these kind of negative feelings. Right. So both people are losing in this situation, in this dynamics. That’s why I think the most important thing we have to say here is to claim the dynamics to start to help the couple expand the problem from within one person to between the two of them.

Laurie Watson [00:16:38]:

Yes.

George Faller [00:16:39]:

Right. That language that you use, I’m not attracted to you. It’s what did you say?

Laurie Watson [00:16:45]:

I said I don’t feel much chemistry.

George Faller [00:16:48]:

Chemistry. Chemistry is such an easier word because we can change chemistry. We just got to mix up the ingredients. It’s not something that’s just intrinsically I’m either attracted to you or not. This either or scenario. Right. Chemistry is something we can work with.

Laurie Watson [00:17:05]:

Yeah. Because I think all of us have also felt in our marriages. Let’s say we are attracted to our partner and we’re going through a really bad season, and suddenly we look at them and we see all their flaws and we see all the ways that they don’t look so good. Right. And we don’t feel as much chemistry with them when generally we would say, yes, they’re very attracted. I’m attracted to them. But we know that chemistry kind of waxes and wanes with our emotional connection, and I think our sexual connection nice.

George Faller [00:17:40]:

Yeah. I know. There’s some study with couples who separate, and it feels like there’s no way they have to get divorced. And a big percentage of those couples, if they can just stay together for a year, they’re fine. A year later, things change. Right. The tapes we play change. This isn’t not etched in stone. Just because you’re not attracted to your partner in this moment doesn’t mean that’s the way it’s going to be a year from now, especially if you can work on it, you can talk about it, you can bring more parts of both of you into this conversation. Then certainly we have different numbers to work with. Back to my numbers.

Laurie Watson [00:18:15]:

Yeah. My own path, I think, is through great sex. I had a boyfriend that I agreed to date, and I really did not find him very attractive at all. I don’t know. Wasn’t attracted to him. And after he kissed me, I was just so attracted to him. It just changed everything. It was like my body turned on, everything turned on for me. And then I thought he was so cute and thought he was so hot and did it. So I guess I wonder and maybe it’s because I’m a woman that that sensuous pathway works better for me. And maybe as a man, if your visual doesn’t work for you, it’s harder. And that’s so stereotypical. And I know women who are not attracted to their husbands who say, look it, I’m playing tennis. I’m in my fifty s, and I work out, and my husband works all the time, certainly, but he’s let his body go, and I don’t feel it so much anymore. I don’t like that he doesn’t take care of himself. And when we’re in bed, he feels a little doughy. And I kind of want somebody with some ridges and planes on his body. So I don’t think it’s just one gender, of course. I just personally feel for me, that was an easy path, right? I mean one, I think you said the conversation and I don’t know if I talked about this a couple of episodes ago, but I had a conversation with a young woman who she was my hairdresser and she’s smoking hot, that girl, but she said about two years ago she had gained 40 pounds and she was with this same man. And she said, you know, he talked to me about it. And she said, he was clear, he was direct, he was loving. And he just said, I just want you to know I am so much more attracted to you in the body that I met you in, and how are you feeling about your body? And she said, I was feeling terrible. It was clear to me. I was already self conscious. I felt awful. And he’s like, okay, I want to be attracted to you. I want to be proud of us together. I want a lifestyle that is about staying healthy and staying fit, and you kind of know what you need to do about that. And she said, it was hard. It was really hard to hear that. And he had not withdrawn sexually. He had not stopped making love to her, but she was just, like, the hardest thing. But I also respected that he told me so that was more motivation for me to get in shape. And he was right. He also helped me confront that part of myself that had been gaining weight for all kinds of reasons. It’s like he helped me think about me. And she said, I don’t know. I said, God, did you just not want to cut him off? And she’s like, Everything in me did want to recoil and pull back and not be naked in front of him and all of this. But she’s like, he said it in a way that it was his truth and he was respectful to me, and I needed that. And I just thought, that is the most loving conversation about this I have ever heard.

George Faller [00:21:50]:

Beautiful. Well, she took responsibility for what she can control. So many couples that I’m working with. I think Stan tatken, when he was on our last podcast. What he said that was so helpful to me, just making it more clear is that the majority of time couples in conversation or interaction, they’re operating from this automatic pilot where they’re not really present with each other. And so often this happens in sex, right? It’s like people allow their tapes to play. It’s the same position, it’s the same they’re not really super engaged, right? And when you’re not super engaged, that is an environment that starts to breed. Not feeling attracted to your partner, right? And it’s information. So I love that this guy listened to the information shared and she heard the information and that there’s a reason why we feel what we feel and can we use that to be more intentional, to be more present with each other. When both people like their bodies and like having sex, that’s a great environment for great sex. Whenever you see a lack of attraction, there usually is a lot of issues in that couple that are not being addressed, right? So to me it’s an opportunity. I know it hurts in the short term, but everything is redemptive for couples who are willing to kind of do the work together. You can pull through something like this if you both are willing to change the dynamics.

Laurie Watson [00:23:20]:

And I just want to say something because weight particularly I think is a really toxic subject and there’s a lot of people out there in a movement that kind of say, look it, you should love somebody no matter what they look like, no matter what their weight is. That is their business, not your business, but attraction is your business. I think that there’s something to be said for that. I mean, I think sometimes if you tell somebody I’d be more attracted to you if you were thinner or whatever or I’m concerned about this. I think the way you say it is important, but I think it could just go the other way. That person could say fuck you, my weight is my business and if you don’t want to be with me, that’s it. And I think that’s the risk of being honest and talking about it. You’re taking a big risk to talk about this.

George Faller [00:24:23]:

Both partners have to be honest with themselves and where they’re at. If you gain a lot of weight but you’re comfortable with your weight and you feel beautiful with your weight, that really shouldn’t be an embedded but we live in a culture that shames us a lot for that. So if you feel terrible about your weight and it makes you not want to have sex or show your body, how is that not going to impact the dynamics in the bedroom?

Laurie Watson [00:24:50]:

Right?

George Faller [00:24:50]:

And I know how do you talk about that? Because you feel bad, your partner feels bad and no one’s talking about it.

Laurie Watson [00:24:56]:

I know that’s a lousy situation. And either way, either gender gaining weight or letting themselves go or hygiene. Good Lord, hygiene is such an important one. Like, people who don’t go to the dentist, all that gracious, right?

George Faller [00:25:15]:

People become overwhelmed, they become depressed, they become addicted. There are always reasons that head us down these roads. But if you find yourself in a relationship with a partner who’s let themselves go, who’s no longer investing, engaging again, what I hear you saying is that’s a wake up call. It’s a partner saying, hey, well, listen, we have an obligation to each other to stay engaged, to continue to invest in each other. Right. And for good reasons. One partner is not doing that so much anymore. So how do we encourage the effort instead of discouraging? Because, again, it could sound hurtful.

Laurie Watson [00:25:52]:

Yeah, I mean, first of all, I think if you’re concerned about weight and you’re bringing in to the home a bunch of junk food and you know your partner can’t resist that. You’re an know, it’s like, don’t do.

George Faller [00:26:10]:

Like, what if you really like junk food?

Laurie Watson [00:26:14]:

George and his pizza and his pasta.

George Faller [00:26:16]:

What else do you like healthy for you? I don’t know why you call that junk food. That’s healthy food.

Laurie Watson [00:26:22]:

What junk food is your favorite junk food? G. Oh, I know what it is. Hershey’s. Hershey’s chocolate.

George Faller [00:26:29]:

Like a chocolate bar. Some ice cream. I think they’re all naturally beautiful, healthy things.

Laurie Watson [00:26:34]:

Strawberry ice cream. Okay, let’s not talk about food. Okay. So I think certainly also investing in the sensuality of the sex life. Like, you know what? This is one of the problems with food, is we eat for sensual comfort, and then we deny ourselves sex because we don’t feel good enough to receive sexual pleasure. So, I mean, upping that quotient and saying, let’s make it as sexy as possible. Maybe oil massage and long foreplay and going away together and flirting and I mean, really thinking about being intentional about how do we increase sexuality? I think we can flirt with people that we’re not attracted to. Right. Flirting is just fun. And so what about doing the things that reengage yourself? And that’s difficult if you’re not feeling good about yourself. I know that. And especially if you’re thinking, oh, and my partner is not feeling good about myself, why would I want to submit to a massage or have them touch me at all? It’s like, because you need that and your relationship needs that.

George Faller [00:27:52]:

This might also be a perfect time to get help. This is whether a therapist can facilitate this space. Right. If you don’t know how to bring it up, don’t keep it to yourself. Bring it up to a therapist to figure out how to bring it up. Yeah, but this is what therapists are here for, is to help facilitate difficult conversations. But I want to end by role playing. Laurie, maybe you could bring it up to me, right? You’re not so attractive to say. How can you say it in a way that protects me. Just give a quick little example.

Laurie Watson [00:28:25]:

Okay. So I’d say, Honey, I love you. I love who you are, I love making love to you, and I love your body. But I’ve kind of noticed, and I’m worried about that you’ve been gaining weight, and I’m fantasizing about your flat stomach and I don’t know, is there a way that we can together think about this and approach it, just get healthy together? Maybe we can do our morning jogs together or something. What are you feeling about your body?

George Faller [00:29:09]:

I’m thinking about a Big Mac right now.

Laurie Watson [00:29:13]:

I’m so sorry.

George Faller [00:29:15]:

All right, well, again, is it hurtful.

Laurie Watson [00:29:18]:

That I say that? Of course it’s hurtful.

George Faller [00:29:21]:

It is. But part of me knows that’s true. I’m glad you brought it up because it’s something I avoid. I don’t like to think about.

Laurie Watson [00:29:34]:

I know. And I think you’ve been under a lot of stress. I think you’ve been under a lot of stress. I just appreciate you hearing me right now about it. And I still want you to know I want to be with you. For sure.

George Faller [00:29:51]:

No perfect way of doing this. Laurie’s just making an attempt. Right. And we want to leave you all with not just advice, but practical. Like, you got to take this advice and put it into action because that’s the only way it’s relevant.

Laurie Watson [00:30:08]:

I’m laughing because whenever we talk about it in classes with people and we talk about how belly weight raises cholesterol, george wants to start doing sit ups. George, I do not think you have a belly. Just for the record, I do not think you have a belly, buddy. Okay.

George Faller [00:30:26]:

Keep it hot, y’all.

Laurie Watson [00:30:28]:

Thanks for listening. I would love to invite you. This is women only, but we are having a retreat in Asheville on November 10 through the twelveTH, and it’s going to be a slumber party. And so we’re going to all stay together in the same cabin. It’s a beautiful space, and we’re going to have meals brought in and made, and we know who the chef is, and so it’s going to be wonderful. Maybe drink a little bit of wine, if you’d like to. And we have kind of some talks and time to work together on your sexuality. So the whole goal of this women’s sexuality retreat, the slumber party, is to basically enhance and develop yourself, your erotic self inside. So we’re going to be talking about anatomy and physiology and sexual attachment. We’re going to talk through blocks. What stops us? What are the breaks against our sexual expression, and then what are our gas pedals? What are our turn ons? How do we open up more sexually, like with enhanced sexual pleasure? And we’re going to talk about orgasms and roleplay and using joys and fantasies and some stuff. And each night we’re going to have a pajama party where we just relax and sit around and talk on the deck and hang. Out together. And then on Sunday morning, we’re going to set our focus and have concrete steps toward sexual engagement with our partners.

George Faller [00:31:52]:

Sounds pretty awesome. Laurie and all the men. Don’t worry about it. Maybe we’ll have like a Spartan camp out somewhere, have a couple beers and we’ll do our own version of that someday.

Laurie Watson [00:32:04]:

That would be great. So love to invite you. I will post it on Foreplaysextherapy.com under Resources, and there will be the retreat, the scheduling events, and you can link and figure out if you can make it with us on November 10 through the twelveTH in Asheville.

Joe Davis – Announcer [00:32:23]:

Call in your questions to the Foreplay Question voicemail dial eight three three my foreplay. That’s eight three three my. The number four play and we’ll use the questions for our mailbag episodes. All content is for entertainment purposes only and should not be considered as a substitute for therapy by a licensed clinician or as medical advice from a doctor. This podcast is copyrighted by Foreplay Media.