Joe Davis – Announcer [00:00:00]:

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George Faller [00:00:24]:

Let’s talk about going deeper, taking risks, showing up in the moment of greatest need for our partner.

Laurie Watson [00:00:34]:

Okay.

George Faller [00:00:34]:

What do you think, Laurie?

Laurie Watson [00:00:35]:

Oh, yeah. Let’s talk about sexual pursuers and sexual withdrawals and what blocks them, what they’re afraid of.

George Faller [00:00:43]:

All right.

Laurie Watson [00:00:46]:

Welcome to foreplay sex therapy. I’m Dr. Laurie Watson, your sex therapist.

George Faller [00:00:50]:

And I’m George Faller, your couple’s therapist.

Laurie Watson [00:00:53]:

We are here to talk about sex.

George Faller [00:00:55]:

Our mission is to help couples talk about sex in ways that incorporate their body, their mind, and their hearts.

Laurie Watson [00:01:03]:

And we have a little bit of fun doing it. Right.

George Faller [00:01:05]:

G. Listen and let’s change some relationships. So excited. Laurie, another in person training. Philadelphia unleashing the Power of sex and EFT for therapists. October 4 and October 5. This is one of our favorite trainings to do. It’s such a need out there to empower therapists, to keep their focus better in session and know how to help couples facilitate these bonding conversations through sex. Most of us don’t grow up in families talking about this stuff. So get some of the tools that you need. Have some fun. Engage with other therapists. It’s great to be back in person.

Laurie Watson [00:01:42]:

Oh, yes, it is so great to be in person. We had so much fun in our last in person training. I mean, people actually laugh at our jokes. And I gotta say, some of what we’re doing, I think it’s pretty cutting edge. We’re working on stage one and stage two. For those of you who are therapists and EFT, you’ll get what we’re talking about. But even if you’re not an EFT therapist, there’s a lot here that you can learn about how to talk with couples about sex and how to become more expert at it.

George Faller [00:02:10]:

And if you’re a listener and you do have a therapist and your therapist doesn’t know about EFT, tell them, you know what? I think you should check this training out. I guarantee they’ll come out of that training with some new tools, which is that’s what we’re in the business of, right? Creating change with new tools.

Laurie Watson [00:02:25]:

Yes. So come join us in October in Philadelphia.

George Faller [00:02:31]:

You’re going to get some big fears in these places, right? In that sexual cycle, you’re either reaching out and getting rejected, or you’re the one who’s not in a mood and you’re the one who’s the problem because you don’t want to have sex. And that cycle just beats the hell out of both partners.

Laurie Watson [00:02:47]:

It does. I was talking to a client, and I really think that the sexual cycle is even more vulnerable than the emotional cycle because it’s trusting our bodies. It’s such a primitive need to be touched and then layer that with to be given an orgasm. I mean, it’s just so exquisitely vulnerable when our bodies are involved because it’s kind of emotional, but it’s also physical and so things get messed up and rejection is so easy here and anger is so easy because we can ask and then to not have it sort of listened to or met. It can just be so frustrating.

George Faller [00:03:37]:

Absolutely. And I think a lot of couples can make some progress understanding the cycle and seeing the cycle like, yes, this is what we do. Exactly. And they want to work together. So that’s the first step, right? Recognizing that cycle, trying to unite against it. But going deeper is the real key. Trying to comfort and reassure the fears actually discharges the power of a negative cycle and allows them to start replacing it with a positive cycle. So really, let’s just take some time to talk about who you want to start with. Pursuers or withdrawals?

Laurie Watson [00:04:14]:

Start with the pursuers, of course.

George Faller [00:04:16]:

Yes.

Laurie Watson [00:04:18]:

I think there are so many fears inside about sexual pursuing. Especially, let’s say, in a negative cycle. Not in a cycle where you’re met and matched with the erotic energy that you bring, but in a cycle where you’re not. I think one thing is it can just feel like I’m too much. That’s the big one. I’m insatiable. And I think as a woman, I think there is a cultural difference there, that there still is a message to women that says wanting sex, wanting sex a lot makes you a slut or makes you somehow or another, a nymph makes you bad. There’s something negative. Whereas I think men sexual pursuers get affirmation from the culture. That’s who you’re supposed to be.

George Faller [00:05:09]:

I don’t totally agree with that. So many men as a sexual pursuer, you get portrayed as this simpleton who’s just starved for sex all the time and it’s all about lust and you’re dirty. It’s not like a healthy thing. You have something wrong with you because you just want this too much. It’s almost like a caricature of a guy who this is their whole life is just wanting to have sex, which totally misses so much. I mean, it puts you in this position of needing to defend something that’s healthy. But the more you defend it, the more you’re making the point that it’s all about sex.

Laurie Watson [00:05:48]:

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I think you’re right. I think that there is sometimes a negative image of a man that all he wants is sex and that that’s lustful and that it’s not really seeing him as a whole person that he wants. Yeah, he has desire, he has lust. He also has intimacy needs. And that maybe the way he expresses himself best is sexually. That his love and his energy for his partner are there, and it sees him very narrowly. So I agree, maybe there’s something bad for both genders, both sexes, negative messages. But I would say in the firehouse, right, your buddies, your guys, it’s like you’re accepted to have sexual desire. You’re expected maybe even to have sexual desire. Do you not think that that is an experience?

George Faller [00:06:40]:

I do. Other men might accept that energy because they share it, but if you go out with a group of women, how would they feel about when they’re talking about their husbands and here they always want sex. But regardless, I think there are differences between the genders.

Laurie Watson [00:06:59]:

Can I just say, though, that women don’t get that acceptance anywhere, right? Because like you just said, we’re going out with a group of women, and the women hear that same message, too, of like, oh, my husband wants it all the time. They’re pushing away the sexual energy that is coming toward them. Women’s sexual pursuers don’t really have a place where they have affirmation. Like, this is a really good, healthy thing. We get it not from their peers.

George Faller [00:07:27]:

So we’re in agreement that it sucks for both of them to have this healthy energy. And when you try to express it, not only do you get rejected, but you start to think because you get rejected so much, your choices get angry at your partner or what is it about you? Why this keeps happening? I mean, to keep getting rejected. And I do agree it’s probably worse for a female pursuer.

Laurie Watson [00:07:52]:

Yeah, I think for a woman, the first thing that a woman thinks is, I’m just not attractive enough. I had a guy friend who we knew really well, and this was early in our marriage, and he knew that I probably wanted sex more than my husband did at that stage. And he said, Show me a woman who wants sex and her husband doesn’t want her, and I’ll show you an ugly woman. And I was, thanks. Thanks so much.

George Faller [00:08:19]:

That was not kind.

Laurie Watson [00:08:20]:

And I don’t think he was conscious. I don’t think he was conscious. I don’t think he was purposely saying to me, you’re not attractive, Lori. I don’t think that. But, I mean, just that it came out of his mouth. It’s like, wow, slam. You know, just slam it’s like exactly. And that is what internally, it feels know? I’m just not desirable, not attractive.

George Faller [00:08:43]:

And that’s why it’s so fun, like, when we’re doing this podcast together, because we have both different styles and different realities and different brains. I think it was mark Grunger is a comedian, and he talks about a guy’s brain is like a waffle, right? And everything is a little spot and everything’s focused and stay on target and fix the problem, where a woman’s brain is like a bowl of spaghetti. Like, one thing touches another thing. So as we’re doing this podcast, right, where I’m saying, all right, let’s get into the pursuers so we can get into the solution to it. And your brain is getting into the difference between male pursuers and female. It’s just two different beautiful ways of having conversation. And it’s so nice that we get to do this together to role model what most couples experience is like. They’re talking about the same topic, but they wind up going in different directions a lot of times. So we do a lot of that on the podcast, too. Hopefully that’s normalizing for all our listeners.

Laurie Watson [00:09:40]:

And it drives George crazy a little.

George Faller [00:09:42]:

Bit, and I’m sure it drives you crazy when I want to be on focus. Wait, this is a target. Why are we talking about this again?

Laurie Watson [00:09:50]:

I need you.

George Faller [00:09:51]:

This is a universal I need you for everybody.

Laurie Watson [00:09:55]:

I need you to help me focus.

George Faller [00:09:56]:

Thank you. I like that you can get creative and let your juices flow and they go in different places. And you don’t have to color inside the lines all the time. Sometimes you got to color inside the lines, sometimes you go outside the lines.

Laurie Watson [00:10:09]:

But, you know, I’ve gotten a lot better as we’ve worked together for the years.

George Faller [00:10:13]:

I think we both work pretty well with each other. We balance each other out. Yeah.

Laurie Watson [00:10:18]:

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George Faller [00:11:46]:

Thought if I could do my thing and get us back to the point.

Laurie Watson [00:11:49]:

Of these fears, that what okay, one last little spaghetti comment. I don’t want it to be competitive like women have it worse than men or anything. I just hear that from women. And I did want to express that and affirm that I get that piece. Not having a peer group that affirms you.

George Faller [00:12:11]:

It’s what the energy wants to do right. Of a pursuers. It wants to be seen, it wants to be known, you know? Well, what it’s like. You spend many of your whole life in this space, then it’s often not seen and understood. So when you get a chance where you can speak to it, of course your body wants to take it. And I think that’s such a healthy thing to do.

Laurie Watson [00:12:31]:

Okay, thank you. So sexual pursuers, all these fears being.

George Faller [00:12:36]:

Too much, and if it ended with the fears, that would be bad enough. It sucks for anybody to be rejected, but that’s just usually the start of the process for pursuers because they get angry to protest, and then their partner just shakes their head and walks away, and then they’re left with all that energy that oftentimes turns inward, right. And it starts to become self critical. Like, you’re ugly, maybe you’re not a good lover, you maybe have bad breath, maybe you come too quick, maybe there’s something wrong with you. This is what your mom said, and this is where the shame shows up, right? This is where the self criticism, the self contempt, the self hatred can show up. And usually nobody’s seeing this inside the pursuer. So being able to access that and being able to I mean, the beautiful thing about emotions is not only does it tell us the problem, but embedded in that as the solution. Right. If I’m criticizing myself because I feel like I’m too much, being able to get my partner to reassure me that, no, it’s healthy that you want these things, it’s the cycle’s fault. It’s not your fault that you want to express yourself and be seen. I love that about you. Like that. Reassurance to the fears is the missing ingredient. When pursuers get that, when they don’t feel like they’re too much, it’s so much easier to initiate and reach out in these healthier ways instead of these very critical, angry ways.

Laurie Watson [00:14:04]:

So we need to be seen and we need our partner to see it and to be empathetic to it and caring about this piece that has been rejected as we begin to heal.

George Faller [00:14:16]:

Right. And when that could be reassured, the fears, then it really sets the stage to the true solution to the sexual cycle, right. Which is that longing in the desire, in the erotic mind, which is to be met. I want you to get as excited as I am when you can show up for me in that place. That’s where we get a positive sexual cycle. But you can’t get a lot of people try to get the behaviors and the actions when they never really address the emotional vulnerabilities underneath. Right. That then stop that from happening.

Laurie Watson [00:14:52]:

Yeah. I so appreciate you saying this, that certainly the sexual pursuer needs sympathy for their plight and for what they have longed for and how they’ve been rejected for the years, but without the reciprocal energy coming for them, they don’t necessarily heal. I mean, the relationship doesn’t heal. It doesn’t change. And so it has to be more than, wow, I’m so sorry I haven’t met you there. I get how hard that is. I really see how I’ve let you down. The person has to have action that is sexual.

George Faller [00:15:33]:

Yes. There are two longings. There’s the longing and the emotional piece that needs reassurance comfort and love in broken places. And then the second long is the erotic longing that needs to be met in this energy. That’s pretty cool and awesome and exploring and curious. So those are the two longings of a pursuer.

Laurie Watson [00:15:57]:

Yeah. Well, let’s come back and talk about the sexual withdrawals and the fears that they have and what they need in order to heal the cycle, because we’re not saying they’re just the cause of the cycle. Sometimes what happens is this thing takes on a life of its own, and they shut each other down. So let’s come back to that Uber lube. It’s a luxury lubricant. Can you say that three times fast? Uber lube. Luxury lubricant. Basically, it’s pure silicone bliss. It is made from superior ingredients. It has skin, soothing vitamin E, and it goes on just like natural moisture. And it lasts a long time. There’s no drip. Their glass bottles are truly beautiful. You can leave them on your bedstand. I do. No problem. Nobody notices. And it’s basically like this thin, slippery silicone formulation. It reduces friction, which is great, but it doesn’t reduce sensation. And it stays slippery long enough for lasting pleasure. They have travel friendly, toughened glass bottles. You can slip it in your gym bag. You can slip it in your purse. You can be ready whenever. Try Uber lube. The silicone [email protected] use the code foreplay for 10% off. Really? It is the best lubricant on the market.

George Faller [00:17:25]:

Right. Here comes these sexual withdrawers. The flip side of the coin, the pursuer is getting the message they’re too much. Well, guess what? The withdrawals getting the message that they’re not enough. They’re failing. They’re coming up short. They don’t have desire. Their body’s broken. They’re always disappointing people. They’re not the porn star with them. Right.

Laurie Watson [00:17:50]:

They’re not this big energy person with sexual energy. And so they’re really bad. Not enough, I think, too. A very specific sexual fear, not necessarily generated by their partner, but that comes into play in the cycle, is their fear of intensity sexually and being out of control. And of course, what does their pursuing partner want? Intensity and being out of control. Let go. So that’s how it gets wrapped into the cycle. But I think inside sexual withdrawers sometimes like sex, and it’s like their window of tolerance. What they can manage might be a much smaller one than their partner can manage. And they don’t know themselves how to go further with that ability to go toward that place of being out of control, of having it be really intense. Either sexual sensation that’s super intense, or even emotional connection in sex. Like when their partner is just looking at them and wants to see them orgasm and is just like all about that. It’s like that can just feel like so much energy coming for me. I don’t know what to do about this. They can pull back.

George Faller [00:19:14]:

That pulling back. That freezing is just a response to that threat. I like how that need to control because they don’t want to fail. They don’t want to let their partner down. Because it sucks to let your partner down. But it’s even worse to start thinking because it’s my fault I’m not enough for somebody, right? That’s nasty. That’s the same shame place that pursuers can go to. There’s something wrong with me. I deserve to be left alone to regulate that they develop these strategies to control themselves. I need to do this, I need to do that, I need to get this right. I want to make sure and they’re so focused on everything else but themselves, there isn’t a lot of space for that erotic energy to kind of express itself, right? So I think the first longing is to be reassured. If you feel like you’re failing, if you feel like you’re letting your partner down, can you get that message that says, I see how hard you’re trying. It’s not your fault. It’s the pressure of this negative cycle that’s created. You’re an amazing person and you keep trying. And I love that about you. And even if you do let me down some of the time, I still love you. I still want you. We’re still good. Like that reassurance. I mean, the threat in the failure is you’re not going to want me anymore because I’m not enough for you. We all need reassurance in those fears to resource us, to kind of make us feel stronger. So then it frees up the energy to start accessing that second longing, which is, who am I erotically? And how do I get more of that in myself so I could bring it into the relationship? Yeah.

Laurie Watson [00:20:53]:

And one of the ways that I sometimes ask people to picture their sexual withdrawing partner is like, they’re a bit imprisoned. Like the way what we need to say, it’s not your fault. You’ve had experiences. Maybe there’s been trauma, maybe there’s just been the chronic loss of not having been touched enough as a child. And so your partner is like way behind those bars. And I think saying, hey, look at this is not your fault. I know what you’re up against. I get it. You’re really up against it. Because they are dealing with this sense of I don’t know how to let this part out. I really don’t because it’s so scary. When I was a child, I did need. I allowed myself to need. All children need. It’s natural to need. But I didn’t get it. I didn’t get what I needed or I got something that I really didn’t need. I got trauma. I got inappropriate touch, I got molested. I mean, all these things that people can be up against that keeps them locked up inside, not being able to think about being out of control, not being able to think about relaxation and surrendering into the moment, it’s like, are you kidding? That is not safe. My needs won’t be met. Like ask somebody to give me an orgasm. Are you out of your mind? I can’t even ask for a hug because I don’t have that confidence that people want to touch me. I think sexual withdrawals are often really behind the bars.

George Faller [00:22:26]:

It’s an important image. And these withdrawers for good reasons, have this ton of pressure on them. And we know pressure doesn’t do well for accessing sexual energy. So if you zoom out both the pursuant and withdrawer, the root of the problem is the shame. Right? They’re both getting messages of not enough, too much. And the shame says, you’re right, it’s your fault why this is happening. The antidote to shame is compassion. It’s connection. What so happens in most relationships is people hide these parts of themselves. They feel this over and over again, these messages, but they don’t know how to communicate it. And they suffer in silence. So if we can get them to just see the value in sharing these places, it’s so counterintuitive to want to share the worst parts of who you are because your partner is already rejecting the best parts of who you are.

Laurie Watson [00:23:25]:

Right?

George Faller [00:23:26]:

But if you don’t share it, you’re never going to get responded to. And every time you don’t get responded to in these places, those fears just grow. So we know, we’ve seen it thousands of times with couples when people show up for their partner in these places where we need love the most, the relationship changes. It becomes so much safer, so much stronger. It’s so inspiring to see what love can do in these dark places, right? And we need that as a safety to then be able to access that sexual energy. I think too many couples try to get to the sexual energy when this big fire, all these fears and hurts, get in the way of being able to do anything with it. So if you meet that first longing, you give the comfort and reassurance. It then gives the space to access the erotic, kind of dark, kind of more powerful part of that being that there just hasn’t been a lot of space for it to come out.

Laurie Watson [00:24:19]:

Yeah. Preach it, baby. It is good. It is good. I think it is. This place that we enter finally in relationship with our partner, and we have made war on the negative cycle, right? We’ve said, fuck the cycle that’s killing us. And we’re saying, what is beyond this? Who are you?

George Faller [00:24:46]:

Exactly?

Laurie Watson [00:24:46]:

What blocks you? And we bring the compassion to our partner’s blocks. We begin to see them not as our enemy, not as somebody who’s trying to withhold from us or trying to drown us, and that we’re going to be annihilated by their need for us, but as their own issues. Like, okay, this is touch is the way that you feel connected. And when I don’t touch you in this way, you are like, lost. You are just out there. You don’t feel me. My love doesn’t go in all the things I do for you. Yes, it helps, but it doesn’t really meet you the way you need to be met. Where your core, your center feels my love and my connection. Or the other way around. Right. I know that you’re behind those bars and you too would like some freedom and you can’t get there, and you don’t even know what this freedom looks like. You don’t even know what it would be like to come out and join me and feel the sunshine and the light and the joy of your body. Like, oh my God, I can have so much compassion for that.

George Faller [00:26:02]:

Yeah.

Laurie Watson [00:26:04]:

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George Faller [00:26:59]:

And to be free to explore, to be curious, to be in that green brain. You can’t be in a fire. You can’t be drowning in fears and hurts. That’s why it’s so important that couples learn to get help. And to see that help and reassurance in these places is God’s design. This is the way it’s supposed to be. We’re not supposed to face threat and fear alone. And yet, for so many couples, that’s what’s happening. So for me, it’s like those three steps. The first one is you got to start seeing the bigger picture. You start to see the cycle. You start to recognize it’s the one causing all this. Both of you are losing. And the second place is, all right, now, let’s start helping each other with the pain and the fear. Let’s resource each other, let’s reassure each other, and that frees up the energy for that third and final part, which is, all right, now, let’s see if we can explore this erotic energy, if we can share it, if we can show up in those positive ways with each other, which is what great lovers can do. They can really just open up and surrender and become part of something bigger themselves, which is really pretty beautiful.

Laurie Watson [00:28:07]:

Yeah, I mean, the other side of the cycle is hot sex and where somebody feels safe and where the other person feels the excitement that they need. I saw a couple I just want to end on a really happy note. I saw a couple and they were so shut down. They had come from a background of sort of very constricted beliefs, and so they had not had sexual experiences outside of each other. But unfortunately, they came into a marriage with constricted beliefs and they had very tight boundaries about what they could try and what they could do and how they could even express themselves in the sexual moment. And that had carried on for a good 20 years by the time they got to me. And they were at this point of wanting to break free from this constriction, and they wanted to have what they believed their relationship deserved, which was more erotic freedom. And they both believed that. But one was a little ahead of the other, as is often the case, and was pushing for like, look at we got to get there. And the other was anxious. I don’t know what going there would even mean. I don’t know what it would mean for my beliefs. I don’t know what it would mean for us. I don’t know if I’ll be able to I mean, just tied up. And the other one was like, fearful, like, what if I have to tap out of this relationship because I have to have this? And fortunately, they were able to really break through. And I just remember the moment the sexual withdrawal started listening, like really deeply started listening to their sexual pursuer and just said, got it. This is what you feel. And it was like there was, in that moment, freedom. And then they started experimenting sexually, so it was more than just being seen. And I would say the sexual pursuer was gracious and merciful and knew where his partner had come from, was not angry and bitter, but was decidedly on a course of we need to have this. And then the sexual withdrawal just said, let’s try this, let’s try that. And they started to report all these sexually free experiences that they had. And it was enviable, George. I mean, it was enviable. It was like what they were experiencing was so beautiful at this stage in their. Relationship and so sexually exciting. It was like, wow, this is great news.

George Faller [00:31:00]:

It’s what fills us up with hope to know that people can find themselves in these places and what is better than that? So what I’m taking out of this, and I don’t think I’ve ever been as clear, and that’s why we love these podcasts as we try to kind of deepen and distill and get more specific. But in going deeper, there really are two longings. That first longing is to be comforted and reassured in these fearful, shame places. That’s the antidote to not be alone, to bring connection in. And then once you get that, you can break free for the second longing. The second longing is the positive curiosity, the exploration to be met by somebody else on a journey to play with you. It’s such an amazing thing to get that. So that’s our hope for you all. Get these two longings met.

Laurie Watson [00:31:49]:

Yeah. Thanks for listening.

George Faller [00:31:51]:

Keep it hot, y’all.

Laurie Watson [00:31:52]:

Go play. I would love to invite you. This is women only, but we are having a retreat in Asheville on November 10 through the twelveTH and it’s going to be a slumber party. And so we’re going to all stay together in the same cabin. It’s a beautiful space and we’re going to have meals brought in and made and we know who the chef is, and so it’s going to be wonderful. Maybe drink a little bit of wine if you’d like to. And we have kind of some talks and time to work together on your sexuality. So the whole goal of this women’s sexuality retreat, the slumber party, is to basically enhance and develop yourself, your erotic self inside. So we’re going to be talking about anatomy and physiology and sexual attachment. We’re going to talk through blocks, what stops us? What are the breaks against our sexual expression? And then what are our gas pedals? What are our turn ons? How do we open up more sexually, like with enhanced sexual pleasure? And we’re going to talk about orgasms and roleplay and using toys and fantasies and some stuff. And each night we’re going to have a pajama party where we just relax and sit around and talk on the deck and hang out together. And then on Sunday morning, we’re going to set our focus and have concrete steps toward sexual engagement with our partners.

George Faller [00:33:16]:

Sounds pretty awesome. Laurie and all the men, don’t worry about it. Maybe we’ll have like a Spartan camp out somewhere, have a couple of beers and we’ll do our own version of that someday.

Laurie Watson [00:33:28]:

That would be great. So, love to invite you. I will post it on foreplaysextherapy.com under resources. And there will be the retreat, the scheduling events, and you can link and figure out if you can make it with us on November 10 through the twelveTH in Asheville. Okay, so tell us about your cutting edge training that you’re doing on success and vulnerability.

George Faller [00:33:52]:

Laurie we just keep pushing it. Coming up with a new module on the playbook of a pursuer playbook of a witcher. Really practical, moment by moment moves of what a therapist can use. We’re so focused on what’s happening in session enough, there’s talk about theories and these global things. I think most therapists are looking for, what do I do in this moment? Give me a tool, George. So that’s what we’re trying to do.

Laurie Watson [00:34:18]:

That’s awesome. I am so glad you guys are doing this work. I think it helps us be organized to see you do it. You do demos, you do explanations. Teaching it really is interactive. And I think that so many trainings that we sit through don’t give us an opportunity for that. So what you’re doing is really important.

George Faller [00:34:37]:

No, we try to emphasize the teach it, show it, do it model of learning. You need to have some ideas, so we try to teach those, and then we try to show what it looks like implementing those ideas. But most importantly, you now got to practice it. That’s how they become yours. And that’s what we want our listeners and watchers to do, is become their own moves.

Laurie Watson [00:34:56]:

Find George and his [email protected] four.

Joe Davis – Announcer [00:35:01]:

Call in your questions to the Foreplay question voicemail dial eight, three, three, my. Foreplay. That’s eight, three, three, my. The number four play, and we’ll use the questions for our mailbag episodes. All content is for entertainment purposes only and should not be considered as a substitute for therapy by a licensed clinician or as medical advice from a doctor. This podcast is copyrighted by Foreplay Media.