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Insurance Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin the following content is not suitable for children okay, George.

Laurie Watson [00:01:13]:

I heard about a couple this week, and it’s a very kind of typical sexual conflict, but they both end up in this bad place. They both end up feeling like failures for each other sexually. And so I want to talk to you about it and see if you can help me think through this place of double shame and how we can help them think about it differently.

George Faller [00:01:38]:

The double shame abyss the double shame abyss nasty stuff.

Laurie Watson [00:01:46]:

Welcome to foreplay sex therapy. I’m Dr. Laurie Watson, your sex therapist.

George Faller [00:01:50]:

And I’m George Faller, your couple’s therapist.

Laurie Watson [00:01:53]:

We are here to talk about sex.

George Faller [00:01:55]:

Our mission is to help couples talk about sex in ways that incorporate their body, their mind, and their hearts.

Laurie Watson [00:02:03]:

And we have a little bit of fun doing it, right, g listen, and.

George Faller [00:02:07]:

Let’S change some relationships.

Laurie Watson [00:02:09]:

So I was working, actually, this was a case that I was consulting about, and the woman kind of overwhelmed, drowning in children, and her partner comes to her and says, you want to do it? Well, first of all, she is emotionally upset about a million things in the relationship. She doesn’t feel like she gets enough support. She really was in no space. He hit her on a weeknight. She had a million things to get done. And basically he comes into the room and she can tell he already has an erection, and she’s in no mental frame to have sex, really, but she wants to make him happy, and she knows that there’s going to be better times if she has sex with him, if she goes ahead and does it, but she’s not ready. But she agrees. And she says, thinking, hoping that she’ll get ready.

Laurie Watson [00:03:07]:

And her body is zip. And all she can think about is like, okay, he’s ready to go. I should have an intercourse with him right now because he’s ready and he’s frustrated. This is what she’s telling herself. She’s frustrated with me. And she’s like, what is wrong with me? It’s like, he can get ready, he can get aroused. I used to be able to get aroused really fast, and we could have just done it. We could have had a quickie.

Laurie Watson [00:03:34]:

And my body is dead. And she just started to feel like she was broken. And then the guy, he’s playful, he’s happy. The kids are in bed. Yeah, it was a hectic night. But he’s like, it’s playtime. And he’s sexually aroused. He’s ready.

Laurie Watson [00:03:55]:

And he comes in and he kind of sees her face, like this blank, almost, are you kidding? Stare back. And it’s just so hurtful to him. But he doesn’t really say that because he’s hoping still for sex. He hopes for the moment, he hopes for his touching her is going to win the day. But he goes to her, he starts touching her, and she’s kind of limp, kind of unresponsive, not getting aroused. He doesn’t know what to do. And he just ends up telling himself, I do not turn her on. I do not turn her on.

Laurie Watson [00:04:33]:

Why is this like this? Because I used to turn her on and we could just drop and do it. And I don’t get it. He basically said, something is wrong with me because I can’t turn my wife on. It’s Wednesday night. It’s 830, for heaven’s sakes. The kids are in bed. We got till 1030, at least we got plenty of time. And so it must be me.

Laurie Watson [00:04:58]:

So he’s hurt, wounded. She’s feeling discouraged with her body. They’re both in this bad place of feeling like, I’m broken. There’s something wrong with me. It’s double shame. What do we do?

George Faller [00:05:11]:

Yeah, it’s such a horrible place. And I want to zoom out for a second because we talked about oil that acronym. And both of them focus on the outside. She focuses on him just being too much, wanting sex too much. He focuses on her not wanting sex enough. And that’s where most couples get lost. And then if you go that’s to the eye. The inside we’ve talked about, he feels rejected, and she feels like she’s failing, right? So there’s that.

George Faller [00:05:40]:

Ouch. There’s that hurt in that place. But what you’re talking about is a little bit deeper in the inside. When we keep experiencing ouches and messages of failure and rejection, we got to make sense of it. It’s what we talk about, like, view of self. Like, how do we feel about ourself when we’re not picked or when we keep getting a message? We’re doing it wrong. We’re doing it wrong. This is the place where shame thrives.

George Faller [00:06:06]:

So both of them. What’s so horrible about shame is when you understand that attachment, it’s like, where you need help the most. You’re never getting it, because what shame makes us want to do is hide. Right? It’s secrecy. That’s what makes it so powerful. It’s like, why would I want to share these horrible places in myself when you’re already rejecting me, you’re already telling me I’m getting it wrong. There’s no safety to share this. So I just have to endure kind of these horrible places in isolation.

George Faller [00:06:34]:

To me, that is what hell is like. I’m cut off from all relationship, and I don’t like myself in that place either. Right? Nobody does. Well, in this place. I can feel my own sadness coming up, being like, look at this moment that could be so beautiful and could lead to connection and safety. And yet both of them are laying on opposite sides of bed in absolute, abject horror.

Laurie Watson [00:06:59]:

Yeah, they’re in the deep, dark well of shame. Can’t get out. They feel so shitty about themselves, too. I mean, yeah, there’s something that they start with about their partner, but then they end up in the hole.

George Faller [00:07:14]:

Yeah. And that hole just keeps getting deeper because you can’t talk about it and you just don’t like yourself. And it reinforces those messages. I must be unlovable. I must be broken. I must be stupid. I must be fat. I must be on track.

Laurie Watson [00:07:30]:

My body’s broken. My body doesn’t work right. My body doesn’t work the way it used to.

George Faller [00:07:36]:

All of that and the messages of unlovableness, like, I actually deserve to be left alone. People have always left me in my life because I’m just not enough or I’m too much or I’m crazy or I’m like. All of these messages, shame confirms them. That’s what’s so horrible. It’s like our worst insecurities get confirmed in these places, and nobody comes to refute it. So we just are left to endure it. And it’s really, I mean, so much of our work is trying to shine a light into the darkness in those places.

Laurie Watson [00:08:08]:

Yeah.

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Laurie Watson [00:09:09]:

So how can we shine that light? Shall we help him first or her first?

George Faller [00:09:15]:

Whatever you want.

Laurie Watson [00:09:18]:

I want to help her first.

George Faller [00:09:19]:

Let’s help her. Our bias is showing up here. But again, I think that in its simplicity, the secret to resolving shame is connection. It’s the secrecy and the hiding that makes it so powerful. If somebody’s willing to kind of share it, I know we’re on a path. We’re starting to kind of shine a light in there that they’re just not going to be alone in that place. And a lot of times when they start and a partner tries to help, they can’t trust it and they push it away, and then that just makes them feel worse. So we want to anticipate a lot of mistrust in these places where you believe the lies.

George Faller [00:10:01]:

I mean, I think it’s helpful to recognize the witness and partner that if nobody comes for so many years and someone finally does show up, it’s hard to actually trust that. So it’s okay, just try more. It’s about it continuing to come that will build trust. So we’re going to head into her place.

Laurie Watson [00:10:22]:

Okay.

George Faller [00:10:24]:

What is she feeling? She’s just feeling that she’s broken, she’s defective. She hates not enough place. She hates her body.

Laurie Watson [00:10:33]:

Yeah, it’s like my body just doesn’t work anymore. I’m like a dead fish. I hate this. I hate living here.

George Faller [00:10:44]:

And if you are a dead fish, what does that make you?

Laurie Watson [00:10:48]:

Yeah. So if I am a dead fish, that certainly makes me not a good sexual partner. And basically I’m going to be left, I think, as a woman, not to be sexy. Not to be sexual is to be kind of to be a nothing. Because the currency in our world as women often is, or we’re told it’s how sexy are you? So it’s like I’m a nothing. I’ve lost my. I’ve.

George Faller [00:11:28]:

So that Laurie’s just even willing to go there. She’s letting us into the darkness, right? It’s putting voice to it. So look at the words that she’s using. Like, I’m not a woman, right? I’m a know. It’s my fault. I’m a dead know. I’m ugly, I’m pathetic. These are some really horrible negative views of self that develop when nobody refutes the lies, when your lies just get confirmed.

George Faller [00:11:59]:

Because nobody comes time and time again. So again, the first thing I want to do is just honor. Thank you for sharing that. I had no idea. I had no idea this is where you go. I just think you don’t care and it’s no big deal. And you’re thinking about the kids and a list of things. I don’t know.

George Faller [00:12:13]:

You’re going to this place.

Laurie Watson [00:12:17]:

Pretty dark place.

George Faller [00:12:18]:

Yeah. I know you’re letting me in and you believe some of this stuff, but I just want to let you know I don’t see you that way. I do see you as attractive as a someone. This isn’t your fault. We’ve been missing each other. But I’m sorry that you take it that way because that’s not the way I mean to do that. It’s not your fault.

Laurie Watson [00:12:41]:

I appreciate that. It’s kind of hard to take that in, though, because it messes us up.

George Faller [00:12:48]:

So much, Laurie, and it makes so much sense that it’s hard to trust anything in this place. It really breaks my heart to know that you go here often and I didn’t really know that. I thought you didn’t care. Yeah, I could imagine. Anything I say you’re not going to trust, and that’s okay. I don’t even know what to say. I don’t want you to be alone in this place.

Laurie Watson [00:13:16]:

I appreciate you trying to help me. I think maybe more what I need is being told that you’re going to love me. And be with me while I’m dealing with all this new stuff with myself sexually, that you’re going to stick with it and it’s not the end of the world when I don’t respond on one night and that you’re not going to leave me, I guess that you’re going to be patient with me in this.

George Faller [00:13:56]:

I definitely want to love you in these places. You don’t love yourself, that’s for sure. And it’s definitely going to make me more patient because I didn’t know you were going here. Okay, is a good start. Okay. It’s a good start. She’s shining a light in. We’re not going to clear this place out in one conversation, but this is so different than typically, that’s for sure.

Laurie Watson [00:14:24]:

Okay, let’s come back and help him.

Laurie Watson [00:14:31]:

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George Faller [00:19:45]:

So, Laurie, before we get to me, how was that for you again? You spent a lifetime, this person in this role, avoiding sharing it, hiding its secrets, right? And now you’re starting to touch it, and I had no idea. What was it like to start kind of shining a little bit of a light in there?

Laurie Watson [00:20:05]:

Yeah. I think it’s exquisitely vulnerable to reveal this suspicion that I have that actually, I’m just kind of a dead fish inside sexually, because I know how little value that gives me in the world’s eyes as a woman, because everything I see is about sexy, hot, and we imagine underneath sexy and hot. These women are super tigresses in bed. And I’m just looking at myself as a dead fish. And to say that out loud, I can barely even think about it without this horrible feeling of shame and fear coming up, both. And it’s like, then to say it out loud to my partner, it’s like, it makes me feel sick. It’s probably better to say it to him and have some opportunity to work on it together. But you and I were trying to demo this, George.

Laurie Watson [00:21:15]:

You and I are trying to demo this in a 24 minutes podcast. But I think it would have in real life. It’s just such an awful admission of this bad place inside. And that’s kind of what I was trying to show, that, yeah, he had a lovely response, but it wouldn’t been enough yet because this is a deep place of shame. Even as I take on her role, my stomach is still upset. What it must feel like inside, it’s.

George Faller [00:21:51]:

A classic sign of shame, is a nauseous stomach because there’s disgust, there’s revolt, there’s contempt. That’s how we feel. And no part of us wants to show, and we want to show everyone the best parts of us. We don’t want to show the worst parts of us because we’re afraid people will judge us and use it as a reason to further reject us or tell us we’re failing. So this is so counterintuitive. There’s good reasons we hide. I mean, that is the action tendency of shame. It’s to hide, but it’s a short term protection because we don’t give people anything to reject us.

George Faller [00:22:28]:

We feel a little bit safer in hiding it, but in hiding it, we keep out any help that really, anybody would need in this place. And that’s really the key of what we’re trying to emphasize here. The antidote to shame is connection. You’re not going to get that through hiding.

Laurie Watson [00:22:44]:

Yeah.

Laurie Watson [00:22:45]:

So hard to do.

Laurie Watson [00:22:47]:

It requires so much courage and bravery and it actually creates safety in the relationship. But ironically, we have to feel safe in the relationship to do it. And this is always the difficulty, I think, in our partnerships. What comes first, the chicken or the egg? Do we risk and then have the potential to create something deeper and more vulnerable? Or do we just keep it inside, hoping for some magic to happen where we feel like it’ll be safe enough to do it? Which vulnerability? Offering vulnerability and risking is the way to create safety, but we so often want to feel safe before we do that. And so it’s really a bind.

George Faller [00:23:35]:

It’s so important that you’re emphasizing the timing of it, right. You have to feel safe. Your partner has to actually want to know about it. You don’t want to be reckless and let people in when they’re in defensive places and they’re going to use it against you. And we have all these reasons to not want to share it, and we’re respecting that. If I’m at a training and I try to get somebody to role play shame of the whole group, everybody looks down. It’s just such a quick tendency to want to do this is wired into our brain. But if you notice what you’re doing, then you could start making having more of a choice, right? Do I want to do this always? Or can I find moments in my life where I don’t have to always be alone? Even if I can’t share this with my partner, can I share it with a friend? Can I share with somebody that actually can be safe so I don’t have to be alone with it? Because I think about my kids when they feel this way.

George Faller [00:24:29]:

I would do anything to help them. I would not want them to be alone in this place.

Laurie Watson [00:24:35]:

Yeah, I hear that. And exposing ourselves to somebody, maybe every pun intended. And it does let the light in, right? Even if we start with somebody that feels a little safer than our partner, our best friend or our therapist or whatever, so that we can build up courage to then deal with it in the relationship that we’re in, where that person needs to know. I think that’s a good intermediate step just to tell somebody what’s going on.

George Faller [00:25:09]:

I like to use a little withdrawal move. It’s like exposing yourself. I see you flashing, like, with a raincoat. And we’re not saying doing it that way. Maybe you just take off a sock, right. And just kind of ease into this place. All right, let’s get to me.

Laurie Watson [00:25:24]:

Let’s get to you. Let’s get to the guy who has been so rejected again, so easy, like he’s not right, like he doesn’t turn her on.

George Faller [00:25:34]:

So let’s just go real back, quick to oil. It’s so easy for me to focus on Lori and her trigger and how her rolling over is the problem here. That I don’t ever really talk about the hurt underneath. I focus on the outside, not the inside. But if I focus on the inside, that’s where the rejection. Right? That’s where the pain is. But we go a little bit deeper. How do I make sense of this rejection continuing to happen? Over time, the shame part of me starts, and that’s that same nauseous feeling.

George Faller [00:26:04]:

It’s like she’s not attracted to me. I’ve gotten older. My belly has gotten a little bit bigger. Maybe my hair. I’m not as strong as I used to be. I don’t have as much vitality as I used to be. Maybe I think my penis is too small, or maybe I’m afraid of Ed. But the reason why she’s not attracted to me is me.

George Faller [00:26:26]:

I’m not a good lover, right? I’m not who she wants. There’s probably someone else out there that she would work totally fine with. The problem here is me. My shame says, I’m not a man. I’m a failure. And because I’m not a man, I kind of deserve this. It’s that same place you talked about. I really don’t have value sexually.

George Faller [00:26:49]:

My worst fears is I’m not a man. That’s what my shame says.

Laurie Watson [00:26:55]:

Wow. And as I just listened to all of that, it’s, like, so many components. You’re not a man. Your penis doesn’t work right. Your penis isn’t big enough. You’re not attractive enough. You’re worried about aging your hair, your stomach, your strength. It’s like, that is a horrible soup that you are in.

Laurie Watson [00:27:20]:

And it’s like, so many ingredients that land you in this terrible place of feeling bad and, like, you have no value. And I do think while women often their value is in being hot and sexy, I think men, too, their value is in being viral and masculine and able to turn a woman on. I mean, I think that sense of power I can turn her on is such a deep feeling. And if you don’t have that, you ain’t got it anymore. That sucks. Such a bad place. And I appreciate you telling me all that. I had no idea that all of this was going on, like, all of those places.

Laurie Watson [00:28:14]:

I mean, it’s so self critical, and it just has got to feel so bad, I guess. I want to help you here, and I want you to see you the way I see you. This is not how I see you.

George Faller [00:28:36]:

That’s the part that it’s hard to trust. It’s like, if I feel wimpy, which I do in these places, I imagine that must be a huge turn off. I mean, women want the caveman. They want the strong guy. That’s who they’re attracted to. They’re not attracted to this. I feel like I deserve you to roll over. I probably would roll over, too, if I had to be with me.

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Laurie Watson [00:30:05]:

I know it doesn’t make sense that you’re showing me the wimpy part that you feel because you think I just want the macho caveman, but I guess it brings so much more understanding to me and to my heart about what you go through. Because when I look at you, I imagine you just are angry with me and rageful with me about not being enough for you. And then you tell me that actually you go into this terrible place and that’s why you’re pulling back, because you feel so wimpy and so bad about you. Instead of feeling hurt now I feel like I want to comfort you. I want to go to you. I want to tell you all what I feel about you. And it’s not about me anymore. It’s like I begin to see what’s happening between us.

Laurie Watson [00:31:01]:

You land in this terrible place and I didn’t know that. I really didn’t know that.

George Faller [00:31:08]:

Yeah, I guess that’s good to hear. It’s so weird to try to talk about this. And I don’t know if I guess what might help, and I never really think about this, is that this isn’t me. I mean, this is just a little part of me. And it’s okay to feel this way. It’s not going to be used against me, that it’s okay to feel this way at times, just to know that. I guess that’s what I need to hear, that it’s okay. I’m not going to get judged for this.

George Faller [00:31:50]:

I’m not going to be seen differently because I’ve shown this part of me.

Laurie Watson [00:31:56]:

I just want to tell you, I am so grateful that you have showed me this part of you, this part that feels even wimpy. I don’t need you to be macho all the time. This part, it’s like that you would trust me with kind of the deeper, weaker part or just some part of you that feels weak. I feel like, respected that I’m important, that you would tell me this, that you let me in in this place. It’s like, it makes me feel closer to you. I know you’re worried that it’ll make me feel grossed out and that I won’t be able to love you because it’s not always macho, but I actually feel closer right now to you that you shared that with me, and I appreciate you showing me this place. And for the record, I don’t feel that about you. Think you’re very attractive, always do.

Laurie Watson [00:32:59]:

Those are not the things that are going through my mind, but that you would share with me this deeper place. I’m glad for it. Thank you.

George Faller [00:33:12]:

Thank you. I feel like the fire of shame inside of me is getting a little squirting on. Right. It’s hard to trust it, just like it was for Lori. I imagine some of my friends listen to this and, oh, what a wimp. I mean, are you kidding me? Man up, right? So I’ve got those messages my whole life. It’s hard to believe one little exception is going to change that, but it’s the know. And I guess our message to those of you listening is like, you do deserve help in these places.

George Faller [00:33:43]:

Humans were not meant to deal with shame in isolation. Nobody does well in it. And it’s a sign of courage to touch that place and to share it. It might feel safer to hide it, but we know where that’s going to lead. So, again, that’s my hope that you deserve this. We all deserve this. And a lot of us got to do our own work, because if we can’t take our partner’s empathy, then we got to learn to see how we treat ourselves in these places, right? And we’re often critical. How do we replace our own criticism? With compassion.

George Faller [00:34:16]:

The more compassion that comes to shame, the more healing we get.

Laurie Watson [00:34:19]:

And really, in this, we’re asking people to co regulate to help heal each other by offering gratitude and appreciation. When our partner does reveal these shameful parts, that’s so healing just to kind of be seen there and then not have our partner be disgusted with us.

George Faller [00:34:43]:

Exactly.

Laurie Watson [00:34:44]:

Good thing. Yeah. Okay. Thanks for listening.

George Faller [00:34:48]:

Shine that light in the shame.

Laurie Watson [00:34:51]:

Okay, so tell us about your cutting edge training that you’re doing on success and vulnerability, Laurie.

George Faller [00:34:57]:

We just keep pushing it. Coming up with a new module on the playbook of a pursuer, playbook of a witch, or really practical moment by moment moves of what a therapist can use. We’re so focused on what’s happening in session enough. There’s talk about theories and these global things I think most therapists are looking for. What do I do in this moment? Give me a tool, George. So that’s what we’re trying to do.

Laurie Watson [00:35:23]:

That’s awesome. I am so glad you guys are doing this work. I think it helps us be organized to see you do it. You do demos, you do explanations, teaching. It really is interactive, and I think that so many trainings that we sit through don’t give us an opportunity for that. So what you’re doing is really important.

George Faller [00:35:42]:

No, we try to emphasize the teach it, show it, do it model of learning. You need to have some ideas. So we try to teach those, and then we try to show what it looks like implementing those ideas. But most importantly, you now got to practice it. That’s how they become yours. And that’s what we want our listeners and watchers to do, is become their own moves.

Laurie Watson [00:36:01]:

Find George and his [email protected] call in.

Joe Davis – Announcer [00:36:06]:

Your questions to the foreplay question voicemail, dial eight three three my foreplay. That’s eight three three my the number four play, and we’ll use the questions for our mailbag episodes. All content is for entertainment purposes only and should not be considered as a substitute for therapy by a licensed clinician or as medical advice from a doctor.

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