Speaker Ads [00:00:00]:
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Joe Davis – Announcer [00:01:24]:
The following content is not suitable for.

Laurie Watson [00:01:26]:
Children George we are so excited. We have Julie Minano, the author of Secure Love with us today. And gosh, our friend as well. We just are so excited to talk about her book, let’s do it. Welcome to Sportplay sex Therapy. I’m Dr. Laurie Watson, your sex therapist.

George Faller [00:01:49]:
And I’m George Faller, your couples therapist.

Laurie Watson [00:01:51]:
We are here to talk about sex.

George Faller [00:01:53]:
Our mission is to help couples talk about sex in ways that incorporate their body, their mind, and their hearts.

Laurie Watson [00:02:01]:
And we have a little bit of fun doing it right, g listen and.

George Faller [00:02:05]:
Let’S change some relationships.

Laurie Watson [00:02:06]:
And Julie, I just want to know. She is a highly sought after licensed marriage family therapist in Bozeman, Montana, and she’s like the queen of the Instagram with at the secure relationship. We will link you in our notes. And she’s founded the Bozeman therapy and counseling center. And in all her spare time, she has written a bestseller. So we are so grateful to have you. It’s called secure love. Create a relationship that lasts a lifetime.

Laurie Watson [00:02:32]:
That’s Julie Minano. You can find it anywhere and everywhere because I looked for it on Amazon the other day. I googled it and it’s just like everything, it came up everywhere. So you should be so proud. It’s going to be all over the world, right? In all kinds of languages and everywhere.

Julie Mennano [00:02:48]:
I feel really grateful and fortunate to be able to have this voice.

Laurie Watson [00:02:52]:
And we’re going to talk about attachment and how it helps us create connection and a secure relationship.

Speaker Ads [00:02:59]:
All right, copy right here. Julie, nice little note on the.

Julie Mennano [00:03:06]:
Yeah, I sent both of you hardcovers. Signed hardcovers, too.

Laurie Watson [00:03:10]:
Oh, I’m so glad. Yay. Tell us, just, like, how it all started, how did you decide to write this book?

Julie Mennano [00:03:18]:
I had my clinic here in Bozeman and loved eft. Kind of obsessed with attachment theory work, and it kind of came together. I had a couple of clients who said, you should start an Instagram account. You have so much good stuff to say. And then my bookkeeper said, you need to start an Instagram account just to have an online presence or a social media for the clinic. I don’t even know what this is. This is an Instagram for kids. And I wasn’t really open to it, but then just really randomly, on a whim, may twelveth, 2020, I just decided to get the app.

Julie Mennano [00:03:54]:
And then I thought, oh, well, I have to put something on here if I open it up. So I just started making these little hand drawings of teaching people about attachment theory, and then that kind of blew up from there. And my goal from the beginning was, well, so many people just don’t have access to this work. And I didn’t really feel like there were a lot of books out there or information out there that was really getting to the depth of attachment theory and a lot of surface level stuff. And so I really wanted to give this gift to the world for people who just don’t have any other access to this type of work or people who are in therapy but just want a little boosters on the side.

Laurie Watson [00:04:34]:
Yeah. We have referred at foreplay, you have.

Speaker Ads [00:04:39]:
A beautiful way of taking these complex principles and just simplifying them in ways people can relate to. Right. And at the end of the day, love isn’t that complicated. And when it’s working, it looks a certain way, and when it’s not, we have limited ways of protecting ourselves. And you could really break that down, that people can be like, oh, I get that this is helpful. So I get why this is not working, and I could do this, and that would change. It’s. It’s so cool that you can do that.

Julie Mennano [00:05:09]:
Well, I really appreciate, you know, coming from you. That means a lot, because I’ve learned everything I know from George.

Laurie Watson [00:05:16]:
Oh, tell us about how you met George and the work that you’ve done with George?

Julie Mennano [00:05:22]:
Well, I met George. Met wasn’t necessarily the word. I went to George, my best friend here in Bozeman, who was also an EFT therapist. Wendy was just kind of frustrated with EFT. She was just. Felt really stuck. And the externship was here. We have an externship every two years here in Bozeman, and we like to go and be helpers at it.

Julie Mennano [00:05:45]:
And she was like, I’m not going to the externship. I’m going to go to Vegas and see this guy, George Fowler, for some trauma stuff. I think it was the first responder thing. And I was like, you’re crazy. How could you miss the externship? And so the whole time I’m at the externship, she’s texting me, texting me pictures of your slides. I mean, she’s just like, my mind is blown. My mind is blown. And so then she came back, and she was teaching me some of the things that she learned from George.

Julie Mennano [00:06:14]:
And I just felt like even getting the information secondhand was helping me. And so the following year, we went to Vegas. And then I just kind of became a huge fan of George’s work. Then I started this Instagram account, and I have to be, like, one of the main motivators was to get to enough of a following that I could bribe George to supervise me. So I thought, okay, I’ve got 50,000 followers. Maybe I can tell them I’ll make posts to plug foreplay if I can get George to supervise me. And that worked.

Speaker Ads [00:06:54]:
I didn’t know any of that story. Julie, the behind the scenes, was that.

Laurie Watson [00:06:58]:
The Las Vegas training that I met you, too, when you met George.

Julie Mennano [00:07:03]:
I went to two. And then the third was when I met.

Laurie Watson [00:07:09]:
Nice. Very nice.

Julie Mennano [00:07:11]:
Yeah.

Laurie Watson [00:07:11]:
So George was already supervising you at that?

Julie Mennano [00:07:16]:
Yeah, yeah, he was. But not for that long.

Speaker Ads [00:07:20]:
But, yeah, it’s not hard work supervising you, Julie, again, well, we’re here to talk about your know, we have a relationship, and we believe love expands love. Right. If we could help make that clearer and inspire people and kind of normalize why they protect themselves and miss each other, we could build that momentum. And this is such a huge contribution to that because there’s only so many therapists in the world and so many trainers in the world. But when people can kind of snuggle up in their own bedroom and just kind of reflect on their own lives, really cool things happen. So what are some of the big takeaways from this book that you think is important to highlight here.

Julie Mennano [00:08:01]:
First of all, this is a little heady, but I kind of like the idea of the book as sort of a secure base, right? Because the tone of the book is very compassionate and soft. When I read the book myself for the audiobook, first of all, I hadn’t read it out loud, and I had not yet read the entire book front to back. And when I read the audiobook after I would go back to my hotel, I would think, wow, this book is actually making me a better person. Which was a really weird experience, considering that I wrote it. But it’s just the tone of it is so soothing and so soft. And it’s like that in and of itself, I think opens hearts, just that emotional feel that you get and then when you add in the scripts. But I’m really trying to help people not just say these words, but attach them to their heart, because as we know, the words are empty, the words mean nothing. In fact, the words can actually be damaging when it’s not attached to that felt experience.

Julie Mennano [00:09:02]:
So I’m really just balancing these two things of giving people these skills, giving them the words, but also helping them tap in to this softer empathy and deep human kind of wounded, vulnerable place in all of us and bring that together into this.

Laurie Watson [00:09:19]:
You’re helping people understand each other at a deeper level from where they come from, what their attachment style is. And it is a beautifully written and a soft voice. I love that, too. Thank you.

Speaker Ads [00:09:31]:
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Speaker Ads [00:10:00]:
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Laurie Watson [00:10:26]:
Can you tell us about attachment theory? Tell our people, like, what is this all about? What are the four attachment styles? And say a little bit about that, and how these attachment styles form love. And what happens when we love somebody with one secure or with one attachment style or the other.

Julie Mennano [00:10:45]:
Yeah. So I like to boil it down to the least common denominator, which is fear in the context of relationships and a lot of unprocessed grief that’s down in the bottom of these barrels that are driving all of these behaviors. And we have different ways categorized, ways of responding to those feelings. Someone with an avoidant attachment, they’ve learned to just sort of shut it away, disavow it, put it to the side. Let’s not go into that dark place. The downside to that is they don’t know really fully how to tap in and be authentic with themselves. And then they also don’t know how to reach for help from their partner, and they don’t know how to help their partner in that place. Someone with an anxious attachment, they’re going to respond to that pain with kind of trying to control the environment, like this desperate need to.

Julie Mennano [00:11:36]:
If I got to get you to change, or I’m going to protest, or I’m going to let you know how wrong you are to soothe themselves. And then the downside to that is then they end up kind of, if they’re with an avoidant partner, reinforcing that avoidance or kind of pushing people away with those behaviors. And then, of course, the avoidant comes in and reinforces the anxiousness of their anxious partner. And someone with a secure attachment, they’re just really able to kind of figure out what is actually going on in here and communicating from that place that I like to call a balance of head and heart. We’re in our emotions. We can talk about our emotions we’re feeling, but we’re not so overwhelmed that we’ve completely lost ourselves and lost our ability to think straight. And then if I described disorganized attachment, I’d say we take a blender, we pour in some avoidant, we pour in some anxious, we add some trauma on top of that, a lot of unpredictability, a lot of emotional chaos, lack of strategy, really, that leads to this kind of really overwhelmed emotional state. Blend it all together, and then you have disorganized attachment.

Laurie Watson [00:12:47]:
That is a great description of all of those. We talk a lot about the negative cycles, and I know you do, too, the negative cycles of communication. Talk about how partners perpetuate this conflict.

Julie Mennano [00:13:00]:
Well, they’re talking about whatever gets them there, whatever is going to trigger their vulnerability conflict. They might be talking about sex, they might be talking about finances, they might be talking about where to go to dinner. And somehow they start communicating in a way where their needs for safety and attachment security go offline. And then at that point, nobody’s feeling safe, nobody’s feeling heard, nobody’s feeling understood, and their walls go up and tempers flare. And then, like I said, each partner has their way of managing those feelings. One partner might be coming in hot. The other one is now trying to keep things from getting worse. They’re doing damage control.

Julie Mennano [00:13:45]:
The other one’s trying to close the distance, and then it can go any number of places from there. Usually couples will cycle through a few rounds and they start talking about all sorts of different topics. And then we have all these dangling feelings, dangling wounds, dangling unresolved topics. And at some point, they have to stop. That can’t go on indefinitely. And then there’s this period of loneliness and kind of darkness that they both go through. And then eventually that becomes unbearable. So they make their way back, and we’re never going to do that again.

Julie Mennano [00:14:20]:
Let’s just push that under the rug. We’re never going to do that again. And of course, nothing really got resolved. The relationship has now been damaged and just going to come back and people just really sadly get just so stuck in these patterns and just simply do not know how to get out. Nobody does these things to be bad or to push their partner away. They just truly don’t know what else to do.

Speaker Ads [00:14:49]:
Stuck is such a good word, right? Stuck. Well, let’s take a quick break. When we come back, I want to talk about the title of this book.

Julie Mennano [00:14:57]:
Okay.

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Speaker Ads [00:17:11]:
So, Julie, I mean, there’s so much out there on what doesn’t work and these negative patterns and insecure attachment. But I love that you chose the word secure love for your book. I think we really want to help our listeners get a clearer picture on what does it look like when it’s working? What does secure love look like when a couple, we all have the same issues and fights, but what makes for secure love?

Julie Mennano [00:17:38]:
I think the ability to speak to each other in a way that maintains the attachment integrity of the relationship. Everybody’s feeling understood. Everybody’s feeling heard. Everybody’s feeling responded to their space. We’re not sending these messages that your needs don’t matter to me, whether it’s real or perceived. We’re not sending all these attachment wounding messages that leave us feeling alone and unheard. And that’s kind of what not to do. But on the flip side, what to do? We’re sending messages of, you matter to me.

Julie Mennano [00:18:14]:
I can empathize with where you’re coming from. I might not agree with you, but I can absolutely step into your world and see through your eyes and validate your emotions right now. And our bond is more important to me, really, than anything else right now. We’ll get through the other stuff, but we need to really be able to kind of co regulate each other into this place of safety before we try to talk about all of these logistical problems. And both partners are coming into this from a balance of heart and head. They’re able to speak vulnerably, but they’re not just emotionally emotive. I mean, so many people think emotionally emotive is the same thing as vulnerability, and it’s really not.

George Faller [00:18:59]:
I love the integration of the mind and the heart at its essence. What I hear you saying, correct me if I’m wrong, is if you could listen to those fears or the grief or the pain, and instead of kind of protecting yourself by getting angry or running away from it, that you could kind of listen to that place and ask for help. The healing is when you can get help in those places, those longings, the body starts to shift to feeling connected. When we feel connected, we feel seen, we feel wanted, we feel safe, we feel love. All these juicy, positive emotions start to come up in secure love. Right. So it’s really cool that you’re helping couples, and our listeners just try to get a clearer picture what it looks like when it’s working, when we’re in this sweet spot.

Julie Mennano [00:19:45]:
Yeah, I think that’s what people are really needing. And I love that you said that, George, because the healing truly is in the connection. That’s where the healing. Know, how many times have we worked with couples and we’ve seen just when we help them start really meeting each other and connecting, some of the problems just start to sort of take care of themselves.

Speaker Ads [00:20:05]:
Yeah. Most people don’t recognize the opportunity in these fights. They want to avoid them. But you can become the villain to the hero if you’re able to listen to these kind of misses and get that healing. It’s so powerful to be loved in places where usually left alone. I mean, the world is such a safer place.

Julie Mennano [00:20:26]:
That’s just so true. And I’m really getting the depth of that in my work with couples. Right. Really, that deepest piece is really coming alive.

Laurie Watson [00:20:37]:
Talk a little bit about the way you make it so accessible, Julie. Like, how do you come up with these scenarios? And can you give us a couple of those scenarios of how people can say it better?

Julie Mennano [00:20:46]:
I help other people the way I help myself, which I think is kind of what we all do, right, by breaking down concepts and making them understandable to myself. And really, that’s all I’m doing on Instagram, is just reflecting my own processing and also through extensive training with EFT and just learning the power of emotional safety and validation and bringing that in with these scripts. And one line that always stands out to me that George says is create invitations instead of accusations and anything. The way that I word things in the script section is really how can I maximize the emotional safety here while still delivering a message of need and want?

Laurie Watson [00:21:37]:
Right?

Julie Mennano [00:21:37]:
And so a lot of that leads with validations. Anything to create safety. I see you. I hear you. I’m going to lead with you. And here’s what I’m needing. Or attachment friendly context, which is this is because I want to feel close to you, not because you’re the enemy, not because I need to set these boundaries and I got to protect myself. It’s because you’re important to me.

Julie Mennano [00:22:03]:
I need to have this boundary. Or because I’m looking for closeness. I need for you to change this love.

Laurie Watson [00:22:11]:
I think you should help George and I say it better. Maybe we should practice like saying something and you can help us say it better.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:22:21]:
Yeah.

Julie Mennano [00:22:21]:
Yeah.

Laurie Watson [00:22:22]:
To each other. Sure.

Julie Mennano [00:22:25]:
I don’t know if I can help you guys say anything better, but.

Laurie Watson [00:22:29]:
Oh, yes you can. We’ll do our own cycle.

Julie Mennano [00:22:33]:
Okay.

Speaker Ads [00:22:34]:
We’re always trying to role model conversations so we make it easier for our listeners to try.

Julie Mennano [00:22:40]:
Let’s, let’s make a game out of.

Laurie Watson [00:22:42]:
Give me a to. We’re going to make a game.

Julie Mennano [00:22:45]:
If you make a all. I love to play games.

Laurie Watson [00:22:48]:
I’m going to be big surprise the pursuer. And George can be big surprise the withdrawer. Ok. George, I just hate that you’re always so impatient. I mean, we begin this work and you’re impatient and my heart just like sinks and I lose all my energy.

Speaker Ads [00:23:09]:
Do we really need to talk about this now? Can we talk about this over the weekend?

Julie Mennano [00:23:16]:
I would rephrase that as what I’m noticing is that I have all this fear because we’ve been trying so hard to reach each other and we haven’t been able to get there. And so even though we’re here working, I have this fear that we’re not going to get there.

Laurie Watson [00:23:32]:
That’s good. That I’m going to lose all my energy and we’re not going to produce what we need to and we’re not going to connect. And I need to connect with him in order to do this work. I like that. And then he doesn’t want to talk about it. Can you help him?

Julie Mennano [00:23:47]:
Yeah, I mean, it depends on what is he responding to? The good version or the quote unquote bad version?

Laurie Watson [00:23:54]:
The bad version.

Speaker Ads [00:23:56]:
Defensive version. Protective version.

Dr. Stan Tatkin [00:23:59]:
Okay.

Julie Mennano [00:23:59]:
All right, hold on. I think we might.

Laurie Watson [00:24:01]:
The attacking version.

Julie Mennano [00:24:03]:
Okay. The attacking version. Okay, hold on. I think we might be missing each other right now. Like what’s happening for you. Can you help me understand where you’re coming from here because here’s where I’m coming from. I’m really invested in this, and I’m here, and I’m willing to put the work into this situation. But what happens for me is when I hear you saying, it’s not enough, it’s not enough, or we got to move faller.

Julie Mennano [00:24:27]:
Then my system starts to feel overwhelmed, and I start to want to shut down. So how can we kind of work together here?

Laurie Watson [00:24:34]:
Love it. That was good. Nice reframe. Yeah.

Speaker Ads [00:24:39]:
I love that you’re so smart and clever that you learn to integrate all these thoughts and meaning to emotions. I think emotions get a bum rap, especially for a lot of men. And, like, I don’t want to do emotions because they sound illogical, they just sound gushy and whatever. We could take it or leave. Right. But you start to help your readers recognize and kind of similar with Sue Johnson in her book Love Sense. Like, there’s so much logic behind know they’re just given information. And I think when you can get people to realize that they have a lot more value.

Julie Mennano [00:25:16]:
Absolutely. They are the value. I mean, I try to teach people, like, it’s like trying to separate good nutrition from feeling okay in the world and eating. Everybody knows you can’t just not eat or eat junk food all day and be okay in the world. And it’s so easy for people to accept that when it comes to the physical parts of our being. But then it comes to emotions, and it is very difficult and understandable. If you’ve been left alone with painful emotions your whole life, the last thing you want to do is have to sit there in it.

Laurie Watson [00:25:51]:
Exactly. And, Julie, when you were sort of redoing the way George and I were talking to each other, you’re really asking us to speak from the heart, not from that defensive, angry place or that feeling of know, not enough. And when you did it the right way, kind of the better way, the more compassionate and secure way, I literally felt heard by you, first of all. And second of all, it’s like my stomach relaxed and I felt better. When we’re exchanging emotions in that secure place, our bodies respond better.

Julie Mennano [00:26:29]:
Absolutely.

Laurie Watson [00:26:30]:
Yeah. And we feel that warmth for each other.

Julie Mennano [00:26:34]:
Right. And that’s the place that we want to be in when we’re communicating.

Laurie Watson [00:26:39]:
That’s it.

Julie Mennano [00:26:40]:
And it’s just a matter of, let’s help each other get there so we can talk about how we’re going to work with money or how we’re going to raise the kids.

Speaker Ads [00:26:50]:
I just think it’s so cool that you’re zeroing in on this target of when needs are being met and what that space looks like. We thrive in a space where we feel not just safe, but in the safety. We can be our truest selves. Right. And in that being our truest selves unleashes all that positive energy where we can explore and be playful and be curious and compassionate and empathetic. I mean, this is where humans thrive. We’re meant to be in this place, but we can’t get there when we’re constantly threatened and not feeling safe. So don’t look at this as just like this gooey, romantic.

Speaker Ads [00:27:26]:
It’s like all human behavior happens from this resilient kind of resource platform. And you’re really spelling that out for our listeners here.

Laurie Watson [00:27:37]:
And Julie’s book, also for our listeners particularly, has a chapter focused on sex and the sexual relationship, which I read first, of course, which was beautiful. And I love your examples and your couple in there that you show how they get more secure sexually as well. That was, of course, my favorite part.

Speaker Ads [00:27:57]:
I got to read that.

Julie Mennano [00:27:59]:
That means a lot.

Speaker Ads [00:27:59]:
I didn’t get to that one yet.

Julie Mennano [00:28:04]:
That was probably the hardest part of the book to write for me.

Laurie Watson [00:28:07]:
So I learned a nice, very nice. So where do we find mean? I know it’s on every platform. Amazon thrift books. Just basically Google secure love. If you don’t know where to buy this book, it’s in every bookstore now, right? You’re actually hard copying bookstores, which is a really big deal.

Julie Mennano [00:28:27]:
Is it? Oh, good. Yes.

Speaker Ads [00:28:30]:
Noble.

Julie Mennano [00:28:30]:
Yesterday, and there it was on the table in the middle.

Laurie Watson [00:28:35]:
Did that give you goosebumps to see yourself on the shelves?

Julie Mennano [00:28:38]:
It did.

Laurie Watson [00:28:40]:
Nice.

Julie Mennano [00:28:41]:
Yeah. So they had me sign them stickers on the top that said signed copy.

Laurie Watson [00:28:48]:
Very nice.

Julie Mennano [00:28:49]:
Very exciting. Yeah. So you can find it. I mean, really, anywhere books are sold. Interesting. There’s even some on.

Laurie Watson [00:28:56]:
Already. Yeah.

Julie Mennano [00:28:58]:
I’m like, who’s selling the book? I gave them on eBay.

Laurie Watson [00:29:04]:
They’re selling twice the price, probably. Okay, well, we just want to, again, tell you this is secure love. Create a relationship that lasts a lifetime by Julie Minano, LMFT, our friend, published by Simon and Schuster. It’s going to go all over the world. It’s going to be a bestseller. We are proud to host you on our podcast and to have you bring us your wisdom. Thank you so much for being with us.

Speaker Ads [00:29:31]:
You are so welcome to our listeners. Valentine’s Day is coming up. What a perfect gift to give your partner. Right? Let’s exactly drive this book up to the number one bestseller because the world really needs to know more about this. So we got your back on this, Julie. We’ll do everything on our part to kind of do our little piece in it. And we’re super proud of you.

Julie Mennano [00:29:54]:
I really appreciate that. And I agree that bestseller on the label really does matter, because it draws people into the work, and that’s the goal.

Laurie Watson [00:30:04]:
It does.

Julie Mennano [00:30:05]:
Yeah.

Laurie Watson [00:30:05]:
Well, thank you for your work and thanks for listening, everybody.

Speaker Ads [00:30:10]:
Keep it hot, baby, and secure.

Laurie Watson [00:30:13]:
Okay, so tell us about your cutting edge training that you’re doing on success and vulnerability, Laurie.

George Faller [00:30:19]:
We just keep pushing it. Coming up with a new module on the playbook of a pursuer, playbook of a witcher. Really practical, moment by moment moves of what a therapist can use. We’re so focused on what’s happening in session enough. There’s talk about theories and these global things I think most therapists are looking for. What do I do in this moment? Give me a tool, George. So that’s what we’re trying to do.

Laurie Watson [00:30:45]:
That’s awesome. I am so glad you guys are doing this work. I think it helps us be organized to see you do it. You do demos, you do explanations, teaching. It really is interactive, and I think that so many trainings that we sit through don’t give us an opportunity for that. So what you’re doing is really important.

George Faller [00:31:04]:
No. We try to emphasize the teach it, show it, do it model of learning. You need to have some ideas, so we try to teach those, and then we try to show what it looks like implementing those ideas. But most importantly, you now got to practice it. That’s how they become yours, and that’s what we want our listeners and watchers to do and become their own moves.

Laurie Watson [00:31:23]:
Find George and his [email protected] call in.

Joe Davis – Announcer [00:31:29]:
Your questions to the foreplay question. Voicemail, dial eight three three my foreplay. That’s eight three three my. The number four play. And we’ll use the questions for our mailbag episodes. All content is for entertainment purposes only and should not be considered as a substitute for therapy by a licensed clinician or as medical advice from a doctor. This podcast is copyrighted by Foreplay media.

Speaker Ads [00:31:51]:
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