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Joe Davis – Announcer [00:01:24]:
The following content is not suitable for children today.

George Faller [00:01:27]:
We’re talking about some of the roadblocks, the tough spots to making progress in the school of love.

Laurie Watson [00:01:35]:
These are the tough ones, the tough problems.

George Faller [00:01:38]:
We’re going to talk about four things that really do stop progress or stop people from feeling safe and feeling like they could really strengthen that emotional bond, because these things, it can rob a relationship of its safety.

Laurie Watson [00:01:53]:
Absolutely. Welcome to foreplay sex therapy. I’m Dr. Laurie Watson, your sex therapist.

George Faller [00:02:01]:
I’m George Faller, your couples therapist.

Laurie Watson [00:02:03]:
We are here to talk about sex.

George Faller [00:02:05]:
Our mission is to help couples talk about sex in ways that incorporate their body, their mind, and their hearts.

Laurie Watson [00:02:13]:
And we have a little bit of fun doing it right g listen and.

George Faller [00:02:17]:
Let’S change some relationships.

Laurie Watson [00:02:19]:
So, George, what are these things? Tell us some of the bad scenarios that people are really dealing with and are up against.

George Faller [00:02:26]:
We talk about in therapy. There are three a’s. If there’s some kind of abuse happening, some kind of addiction happening or there’s an affair going on, these things are certainly going to get in a way of safety. And the fourth one is if somebody’s just not willing to risk anymore, they’re not willing to engage or to make effort hard to make progress. So let’s, let’s break these down, you know, in a little bit more detail. Let’s, let’s start off with the abuse, right? If somebody’s, you know, you’re in a relationship where somebody’s emotionally or physically or sexually abusive, it’s hard to trust. I mean, abuse robs trust, right? Somebody’s using power to kind of get what they want at the costs and they’re not willing to look at the impact of what their actions are doing to their partner. The worst thing to me isn’t the abuse.

George Faller [00:03:19]:
It’s after the abuse where you just don’t feel safe.

Laurie Watson [00:03:23]:
Yeah, I mean, the three a’s, abuse, addiction and affairs. These are relationship blockers and stoppers. And like you said, sometimes people have given up and they have really said for them, the relationship has died. We sometimes think about burnt out pursuers, but there’s withdrawers too, who are, are tapping out and those kinds of places. It’s really difficult to take all these risks that we’ve been talking about in the school of love to share with each other that, you know, they’re, that’s, that’s not even going to happen. Um, you know, because you got to take care of these things first. So abuse, like you said, is, you know, physical or sexual or emotional, and people are using their power over somebody else. And when that happens, trust is destroyed and it’s not safe.

Laurie Watson [00:04:14]:
And so 1st. 1st thing, you got to be safe.

George Faller [00:04:17]:
You need safety. That’s a prerequisite. And listen, people make mistakes and lose their cool. And if they’re willing to take ownership for that, then we can do beautiful work. It’s just that people are not willing to take ownership. If like, I’m gonna, I’m gonna hit my wife and I’m gonna say, well, actually it’s her problem because she was disrespectful. And I’m not gonna look at the impact of what I’m doing, then there’s not really a lot of safety to want to share and to have kind of conversations. So really, that ability to take ownership.

Laurie Watson [00:04:46]:
Not a lot of safety for sure.

George Faller [00:04:49]:
It’s tough. And a lot of us grow up in families where we’ve been abused and we see the intergenerational kind of passing on to this thing that just continues to happen. And somebody’s got to have the courage to stop these cycles of violence, right? And be willing to say, like, if I’m going to encourage you to take a risk and that risk might be used against you later, it’s really hard for your body to want to take the risk, you know, you have to have that safety net that says, you know, we might hear uncomfortable things, but that’s not going to be used against me later. And you need both people to buy into that process to make the progress that we’re talking about.

Laurie Watson [00:05:28]:
Right. And so you’re talking really about now emotional safety, too. You know, we can’t have somebody who’s going to manipulate us or use against us our vulnerability, that is abusive. And so it’s, you know, things that people get into all kinds of things. Name calling and, you know, threats and, I mean, there’s a lot of ways to be emotionally abusive, but we kind of have some boundaries around that in therapy. You know, we put a lot of boundaries around this.

George Faller [00:05:57]:
Exactly.

Laurie Watson [00:05:58]:
And sexual abuse. Talk about that. Like how, how in a marriage can there be sexual abuse? This people don’t think there can be. Some people don’t think there can be. I, of course do.

George Faller [00:06:07]:
But, yeah, listen, we’re big fans of when you say no, you have a right to know. It’s your body. Right. You know, somebody just can’t override what your rights are as a person. And again, none of us are perfect and all of us make mistakes. I’m not looking for perfection to do therapy. All I’m looking for is for people, if they hear from their partner, you did something that hurt me, they take ownership and they want to work on changing that. If they’re not motivated to change that, if they feel entitled to keep doing this behavior that doesn’t feel safe, this is going to come to a halt and stop.

Laurie Watson [00:06:43]:
Yeah, exactly.

George Faller [00:06:44]:
So like you said, in therapy, we have these boundaries, put these rules in place to create safety. And if couples are not following them, then we’re going to not work with them. So for you all listening, if you find yourself in a relationship with somebody, this is tough, but at least we want to normalize. You’re not crazy. I think it’s hard to want to take risks. If those risks are going to be used against you, then you’re going to need some help here.

Laurie Watson [00:07:08]:
Yeah. And we talk, I mean, we feel hopeful about many very, very difficult situations, but that doesn’t mean that we think you should be putting up with those things or staying yourself. You know, you need to, you know, sometimes, especially, I think with physical violence, you need to get separate so that you, your children are physically safe. Same with sexual abuse. You know, if your partner is taking advantage of you sexually with force, that. That’s craziness, you know?

George Faller [00:07:35]:
So, yeah, you see a lot of gaslighting here. Not only are you being abused, but you’re kind of get blamed for the abuse. It’s kind of your fault. Right. And when you find yourself in that cycle of violence, I mean, that you do need that. Those boundaries are the perfect word, you know, you deserve better. We all deserve, you know, our own personal integrity to be honored and respect and.

Laurie Watson [00:07:58]:
Yes, absolutely.

George Faller [00:07:59]:
And then we’re going to need some, some, we have to take some steps before we can do the rest of this work that we’re talking about in this school of love.

Laurie Watson [00:08:07]:
Yep. So get yourself safe. For sure.

George Faller [00:08:09]:
Get yourself safe. Affairs is another one. You know, affairs, if you’re turning towards someone outside the relationship for support, for comfort, for reassurance, for sex, for sex, for whatever you’re turning towards, you know, that’s certainly going to become an obstacle between working on each other and shrinking the distance that’s, that’s happening. So, you know, if you’re called off an affair and we work with this all the time, half the couples I work with are recovering some type of affair and this school alone for that. Right. Helping people and the opportunity to recover after affairs, to learn to know yourself and each other in a way you’ve never had. I can’t tell you how many couples feel, you know, afterwards, the work, they feel like they’re stronger than they ever were before the affair. Right.

George Faller [00:08:57]:
So that’s. We work with that all the time. But if somebody’s not willing to call off the affair, if they continue to just. Well, I’m not really sure I want to do both. And, like, that really is going to stop their ability to take any kind of risks.

Laurie Watson [00:09:11]:
Yeah. I think one of the huge difficulties in affairs are that the person that you are trusting also often lies about it. So when there’s that discovery process, they maybe don’t tell the whole story or they don’t tell it at all and the other person discovers it, and that’s just like, ugh, you know, that line and affairs often go together, so it’s really a tough thing because you expect your attachment figure. This person you depend on with your heart and your soul and your body, you know, to tell you the truth, and when they’re saying something else and then you figure it out, it’s just, just, you know, it’s like an earthquake. It’s like an earthquake to kind of manage to go through that. People tell me all the time, Laurie, I got lost on the way to the grocery store. I’m like, yeah, it was like an earthquake. You can’t even think straight when the person that you love is lying to you, and, you know, your whole world is turned upside down.

George Faller [00:10:06]:
So we get that it’s a good image. It’s. It doesn’t just unravel the trust in that relationship. It shatters your worldview. It’s like things you assume to be true. Everything unravels. Like your whole 25 years of marriage then is a lie. You know, having your children and how you raise them, all of a sudden, it’s no longer the same way.

George Faller [00:10:27]:
I mean, your future, it’s just. The ripple effect of an affair is pretty profound. And that’s why we’re wanting the affair. Partner. There’s always two things we’re looking for as therapists that, you know, one, they take responsibility for the betrayal, and they’re, you know, they’re taking ownership, and they’re doing what they need to repair trust. And that’s super important, and that’s where we start. But the second part, which can be a bit challenging, is getting both partners to see that the state of their relationship and the distance and the negative cycle always makes one partner more susceptible to something like this happening. And, like, you can’t get so focused on the affair that you don’t see the bigger picture that says, you got to get strength in your relationship.

George Faller [00:11:10]:
You know, we’re going to. We’re going to try to do that through repairing the affair. But there is more than just the affair here that needs to be addressed.

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Laurie Watson [00:11:47]:
Absolutely. I mean, when the affair is first discovered, of course, the person who is injured is kind of, they’re the first patient, you know, you know, they’re bleeding out, and so we gotta help them. But, you know, as we process affairs, we do find out oftentimes the fabric of the relationship has been damaged in many ways. And, yeah, this person acted out. But, you know, affairs don’t happen in a vacuum. They happen in relationships that sometimes there are problems, and people make decisions that they just kind of feel like, this is the only thing I’ve got. You know, I was sitting with a client, and he had had an affair. And as we talked about it, you know, she said, I asked about how their life had been and how their intimate connection had been over time and turned out they had not had sex in five years.

Laurie Watson [00:12:41]:
And I’m not excusing the acting out. I mean, that should have been done with integrity and honesty and the marriage. Then if you’re out, tap out. But on the other hand, there was a part that he was saying, look, I’ve said it a million times, I need to be sexual. I am a sexual creature. And she refused to engage with me, and I didn’t know any other way. And this woman paid me attention. You know, I succumbed.

Laurie Watson [00:13:09]:
And I’m not saying that that’s right, but it is. I mean, I think both parties have to kind of take responsibility for what was happening between us when this vulnerability came. And George, you and I know, and we teach this and we preach this, that the sexual connection has to be secure. And if not, people are at risk for sort of infidelity and the attention of others. That is a truth.

George Faller [00:13:37]:
And again, we’re just highlighting that point that you breaking your vows, we’re not giving it permission. You got to take ownership for the betrayal. And it is a betrayal that devastates that partner’s world. And we know how trust is a process of you earn over time. It’s not a choice to just say, I’m going to start trusting you again. And I do know with 100 degree certainty that the person who’s betrayed, when they look in their partner’s eyes and they see reflected back their pain, they can see their partner feeling their pain, like their body starts to trust again. So there’s a really clear map on how to get people into a much safer place. But both people have to do their work.

George Faller [00:14:20]:
And all we’re making space for is this affair doesn’t happen in a vacuum, that there is work. There’s dynamics between the two partners that also need to kind of shine some light into, because we need to make progress for both people to feel safe. Both people always create a negative cycle, and both people needed to change that into a positive cycle. So we’re going to do the repair, healing affair work, and we’re going to do that in the context of also working with the couples dynamics. And, you know, the combination of those two, you know, gives couples a really good map on how to get back into a place of safety.

Laurie Watson [00:14:57]:
You know, I think if a couple has had an affair, I really think they need therapy.

George Faller [00:15:03]:
Yeah.

Laurie Watson [00:15:04]:
You know, so get yourself to an EFT therapist. That’s iseft.com. I c dash t.com. There’s a database there. Find a therapist, and they’re all over the world. But you can search by state by city, and you can find an experienced therapist who understands attachment repair because an affair tears the fabric of our very attachment to our partnership.

George Faller [00:15:30]:
All right, let’s come back and pick this up.

Laurie Watson [00:15:37]:
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Laurie Watson [00:16:26]:
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George Faller [00:18:58]:
All right, so continue with affairs that when both people are taking ownership and addressing their dynamics and we have so much success, the school of love is going to help you to strengthen that emotional and sexual cycle, right? But if, if the partner who is in the affair is not willing to accept responsibility, is blaming you for all the problems, is not calling off the affair. You know, then this is a competing going somewhere else. There isn’t a safety. You’re going to need for these vulnerable conversations to really bear your soul and hand over your heart. You know, it’s not going to happen with somebody who’s, who’s not really sure they want to be in it with you or they’re going somewhere else. So, you know, this is the time for some of these guys conversations.

Laurie Watson [00:19:43]:
You know, one of the things that I think is important in a fair recovery is the sense of accountability. Like the person who cheated should say, here’s my phone, here are all my passwords. Here’s where I’m going. This is my schedule, this is where I’m going to be. You can come down and see me at the office anytime you want. Like, they really open up. And I think that the person who was injured, on the other hand, you know, that they become vigilant. They want to check the phone.

Laurie Watson [00:20:11]:
They want to do all this. And the best case scenario when trust starts to be renewed is the person who stepped out, opens up, and the person who was left and betrayed doesn’t feel the need anymore to be vigilant and keep checking. You know, it’s like both of those things is the sense of trust is being restored.

George Faller [00:20:34]:
Yeah, let’s face it. I mean, if you’re the offender, you want to just say, I’m sorry, and.

Laurie Watson [00:20:40]:
Can we get it over with?

George Faller [00:20:42]:
Can we just turn the past? But trust isn’t earned that way. So Laurie’s 100% right that when you’re willing to face, you know, your partner’s fears, I think they’re not responsible for these triggers. I mean, they think, oh, maybe there was a message. Let me check the phone. When you don’t feel controlled or threatened by that, you say, hey, my partner’s just scared. I want to build trust. This is actually opportunity. Yeah.

George Faller [00:21:05]:
I’m going to feel bad. I’m going to be reminded of something. I don’t like how I hurt my partner. But trying to avoid that feeling means you’re going to destine your partner to face it alone when you seize the opportunity. I want to face that with you. You see how quickly you start to build that trust.

Laurie Watson [00:21:23]:
Exactly. Exactly.

George Faller [00:21:25]:
Well, I just want to add one other little scary, but, you know, often inconvenient. I mean, a lot of times, the offender does build a bond with the affair partner. Right. And even though you call it off, there’s. There’s a loss to that. Right.

Laurie Watson [00:21:41]:
There’s.

George Faller [00:21:41]:
There’s pain in losing somebody. I mean, it’s really powerful when two people are kind of in sin with each other. Like, they don’t judge each other, like, they’ve accepted that this is where life has them. They. So they’re. There’s. There is something strong that develops, and, you know, research says it’s at least six months. You know, there’s like a morning period.

George Faller [00:22:03]:
So you also got to kind of give the space for the offender to kind of. Even though you don’t want to hear that that’s the reality. Like, even though they made a mistake and they’re calling that off, they’re still in pain. Should they face that alone? I mean, I just think there’s a lot of opportunity for both partners to show up in ways that they’ve probably never done before.

Laurie Watson [00:22:25]:
Yeah. And. And I know you’re speaking the truth, but you’re really asking a lot. Right. Because that’s the worst thing to think about is my partner formed a bond, fell in love, all this with somebody else, and now you want me to comfort them as they mourn that loss? Are you fricking kidding? You know, I mean, but I think this. We’re not saying you have to do that on day one. We’re not saying you have to do that on day one. We know that affair recovery is a process.

Laurie Watson [00:22:51]:
And also, I think, you know, an affair is a dopamine hit. I mean, all it is, all its whole focus is on excitement and building sexual connection. I mean, people put so much time, energy, and money into an affair. I mean, there’s. Their whole body and soul is moving in one direction to this super, super high, you know, and then coming back into real life, it’s like, oh, I got to come back into the middle road, the grind, you know, like, really now my life without that kind of super hit. It’s hard. It’s hard.

George Faller [00:23:29]:
Yeah. I like to say the affair partner only gets 10% of your time, but 90% of your engagement when you they got that time and you’re exactly at home gets 90% of your time, but only gets 10% of your engagement. Right. So those are just not great numbers. And so, yes, that the timing has to be right. But I always ask when the timing is right to the offended person who’s hurt, who don’t want to be there because they’re hurt. But if you’re not going to be there, what’s the option? You’re going to invite this person to deal with their pain on their own. When they deal with their pain on their own, that is exactly the environment that makes affairs more likely to happen.

George Faller [00:24:11]:
When couples learn how to show up for each other in their pain, that is what battle tests a relationship. People being isolated with their pain is what creates distance in a relationship. So I know it’s not fair and the time is not great, but when you could actually crawl over glass and love your partner in places they don’t love themselves, like, that creates a level of security that takes your relationship to a whole nother level. So, yeah, we’ll do all the episodes fully on repairs, but we really just want to kind of help you recognize that if you’re in the midst of one of these and you’re struggling, the school of love can really help you. But if your partner is not willing to own it and still continue to see other person, like, this is not going to be the right time for the school.

Laurie Watson [00:24:54]:
You. This is too much vulnerability. If you’re just gonna. You know, gonna be there’s someone else.

George Faller [00:25:00]:
In the picture that’s we’re not working with. So. All right, last one. Addictions, we’re bonding creatures. Sometimes our partner bonds elsewhere, right? They turn towards a drug, or they turn towards, you know, alcohol. Alcohol or something, or pornography. Like they’re invested in threat when they’re feeling disconnected. Like this is a way of kind of numbing out and escaping and getting some relief.

George Faller [00:25:26]:
But they’re going elsewhere again, another type of competing attach to make a lot of people in addictions. It feels like an affair.

Laurie Watson [00:25:34]:
It is. It is an affair. I mean, it’s like you said, they are consumed by something else. You know, I think about addictions, George, from an attachment perspective. And an addiction really, to me, is this hole in the soul. It’s a person who needs and is missing the connection. You know, whether it’s connection of the other or a sense of goodness that people get connection with God. I mean, there’s an emptiness inside that.

Laurie Watson [00:26:03]:
Then they’re turning to something else, a substance or a process, addiction. And they’re trying to fill this frantically, this empty place. And we know that the opposite of addiction is really connection. It’s not just stopping behavior. That’s why AA works. I don’t think AA works because it’s some sort of magic. It works because people are connecting on a really deep level with other people. They’re sharing their vulnerability.

Laurie Watson [00:26:29]:
It might be the first time people who were addicted to alcohol have ever heard other people share about their heart. You know, I think that’s what the magic is in AA or any of the Al anon. And all of that is people share at a deep level and they find connection finally. You know, it fills up their soul in a new way that the addiction was trying to do.

George Faller [00:26:52]:
Amen. I couldn’t agree more. I mean, to see addictions as a crisis of connection, when you’re massively disconnected, turning towards something for a leaf makes a lot of sense for short term solution. But that short term solution just continues to drive more and more disconnection and isolation. And that’s why I always love that irish saying. Everybody focuses on the drinking and not the thirst. Everybody wants the behavior, but doesn’t understand that it’s filling something. Like, you got to fill that hole in a healthier way if you want people to let go of the addiction.

George Faller [00:27:24]:
And that’s what AA does a beautiful job with. But again, in this model, if the person is willing to seek help and is able to face the pain of their disconnection, it like this works great. The school of love is going to take you to another level. But if that addicted partner is not willing to seek help is saying, I don’t have a problem, you have the problem. If they’re refusing to engage, then this is, again, what robs the couple of safety, because that thirst, they don’t want to lose the help that the alcohol maybe has given them to loosen up and lower their inhibitions. And they like how they feel. The idea of living without it is too hard for them. They just refuse to look at it and put it all on you is the problem.

George Faller [00:28:08]:
And now this is a competing attachment. Like when you want to get close, they turn and have a second drink, right. And want to make love afterwards. And you’re like this. It’s like you have a third partner in the bedroom with you. And that’s not okay. I mean, it’s okay if. My rule of thumb, if one partner thinks it’s a problem, it is a problem.

George Faller [00:28:26]:
It needs to be addressed.

Laurie Watson [00:28:28]:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And let’s speak for a minute about like, compulsive sexuality and porn addiction and things like that. Because I think sometimes that does become a process addiction. And, you know, I have people who come in and say, my partner’s addicted to porn. And it’s really only because they thought about wanting to use porn. They’re actually not even using it. And their partner thinks they’re an addict.

Laurie Watson [00:28:54]:
So, I mean, there’s degrees here, but I think labels. Yeah, so we’re not talking about that. We’re talking about probably a person who is. Who pornography is interfering with their relationships and with their work. You know, like somehow or another, the desire to look at porn, they’re wasting lots and lots of time with. It could be used productively, or maybe it is really interfering with their relationship. They would rather fantasize and, you know, masturbate to an image than they would have sex with their partner or, you know, even be engaged with their partner.

George Faller [00:29:31]:
Yeah, I’m always surprised. Not. I shouldn’t be after all this time, but, you know, with couples, if a man is masturbating topography. And I say, let’s do an experiment, just can you try not to do it for two weeks or a month and see what happens? Almost universally, their sex drive for their partner increases when they’re not masturbating topography. So you can see the competing attachment. It’s easier, there’s no pressure. You don’t have to worry about things not working. You can get the stimulation level you want.

George Faller [00:29:59]:
You can keep changing the imagery, I mean, we can see, like. Like a drug, it gives you an immediate payoff. Right. So I think the intent is healthy. You want a good feeling, but the impact of that, I think so often people are missing with addiction.

Laurie Watson [00:30:15]:
Exactly. And I, you know, this is because I think we specialize in sexuality. I think that we often, you know, see this in our work. And I have, again, a lot of hope that people can fill up. Like, maybe they. I don’t think it’s always they’re using porn because their partner didn’t want to have sex with them. Sometimes they’re using porn to really fill that empty place inside has nothing to do with their partner’s sexual availability. So, you know, but we think you can get help.

George Faller [00:30:45]:
As you know, we’re introducing abuse and affairs and addictions, you know, and this last one is just this. Not willing to risk, not willing to try. Right. I mean, you can’t bridge distance if you’re not going to try something new. Sometimes people are so set in their ways and so set in their defenses that they just. They just don’t need to risk anymore. Like, it’s. They’re not going to be safe to take these risks to make the progress that you need to.

Laurie Watson [00:31:15]:
Yeah. You know, like we talked about earlier, there’s also the situation where people, both people, won’t risk. Right. When the lights aren’t on anymore for either one of them and they are tapped out. And that situation, sometimes, you know, we can’t restart. We have a lot of hope for helping you, but, you know, like that new Billy Joel song, right, that turn the lights back on. I think that there is hope for that, and we have hope for all of these issues, for healing. But if you’re with a partner who will not engage with you, who is using substance or having an affair or abusive in some way, that this is untenable.

Laurie Watson [00:31:56]:
We’re not asking you to continue to take risks. You know, you need to deal with those things first. But again, get yourself to a therapist, find out if there is anything left, any hope, and that you can maybe turn the lights back on.

George Faller [00:32:09]:
So, yeah, sometimes negative cycles win, and sometimes the distance gets too great. The research is really clear that eventually it’s going to reach the point of no return where one partner just isn’t willing to risk anymore. And most people we work with are getting close to that, but there’s still something left, and then we tap into that and great things could happen. But if you find yourself in a relationship where somebody’s not willing to risk then, yes, this is going to block this whole process. And you really need to get the help and the support you need to, because at the end of the day, we’re big proponents that all of us deserve to feel safe and to feel connected and to be wanted and, you know, to be in a relationship where that’s not happening, I think that’s some of the loneliest places on this planet. It is absolutely yourself there. You’re in a tough spot. Get the help you need.

Laurie Watson [00:32:59]:
Yep. Thanks, y’all, for listening.

George Faller [00:33:02]:
Keep grinding away, baby.

Laurie Watson [00:33:04]:
Okay, so tell us about your cutting edge training that you’re doing on success and vulnerability, Laurie.

George Faller [00:33:10]:
We just keep pushing it. Coming up with a new module on the playbook of a pursuer, playbook of a witcher, really practical, moment by moment moves of what a therapist can use. And we’re so focused on what’s happening in session enough. There’s talk about theories and these global things I think most therapists are looking for. What do I do in this moment? Give me a tool, George. So that’s what we’re trying to do.

Laurie Watson [00:33:35]:
That’s awesome. I am so glad you guys are doing this work. I think it helps us be organized to see you do it. You do demos, you do explanations, teaching. It really is interactive, and I think that so many trainings that we sit through don’t give us an opportunity for that. So what you’re doing is really important.

George Faller [00:33:55]:
No, we try to emphasize the teach it, show it, do it model of learning. You need to have some ideas, so we try to teach those, and then we try to show what it looks like implementing those ideas. But most importantly, you now gotta practice it. That’s how they become yours, and that’s what we want our listeners and watchers to do and become their own moves.

Laurie Watson [00:34:13]:
Find George and his [email protected] dot call.

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