In memory of Dr. Sue Johnson, this episode pays tribute to the pioneering force behind Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT). Laurie and George reminisce about their personal interactions with Sue and her monumental impact on the world of couples therapy and sex therapy. They share heartfelt stories, discuss her contributions, and highlight her seminal work in bringing love and attachment to the forefront of therapeutic practice.

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Show Notes

Introduction to Sue Johnson 
– Laurie and George express their grief over the loss of Sue Johnson, describing her as a pivotal mentor and a beacon of love and empathy in therapy.

Stories about Sue Johnson 
– George and Laurie recount personal stories of Sue’s kindness, her fighter spirit, and her unique approach to love and therapy.

Sue’s Background and Impact 
– Discussion on Sue’s humble beginnings in an English pub, her blue-collar roots, and the development of EFT during a time dominated by Behavioral and Cognitive Therapy.

Sue Johnson’s Contributions to Therapy 
– Laurie highlights Sue’s focus on attachment theory and how she applied it practically in EFT to bring about real change in couples’ lives.

Personal Correspondence with Sue 
– George shares how Sue personally mentored him after 9/11, emphasizing her dedication to spreading her mission.

Memorable Moments with Sue
– Funny and touching anecdotes from George about Sue’s visit to the firehouse, their wild ride on the fire truck, and conversations over shots of scotch.

Sue’s Approach to Sexuality
– Exploration of Sue’s progressive views on sexuality in therapy, how she encouraged discussions about sex, and her role in re-eroticizing relationships.

Sue’s Legacy 
– Laurie and George reflect on the lasting impact Sue has had on their lives and the world of therapy, committing to continue her work and celebrate her life.

Recommendations
– Suggested readings by Sue Johnson, including “Hold Me Tight,” “Love Sense,” and “Attachment Theory in Practice.”

Transcript

Laurie Watson [00:00:00]:
Oh, it is Craig Kilborn inviting you to enjoy my new podcast, “The Life Gorgeous”, available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and everywhere. “The Life Gorgeous” with Craig Kilborn. Oh, let the healing begin!

Joe Davis – Announcer [00:00:16]:
The following content is not suitable for children.

Laurie Watson [00:00:18]:
We want to offer today a tribute to Doctor Sue Johnson, who is our mentor and the founder of EFT. And George knew her personally and has some really fun and also poignant stories to tell about her. And I, too, had correspondence with her, and she’s been on our podcast. We are in grief today as we mourn her loss and the light that she has been in the world. So, we just want you to enjoy us reviewing the fun that we had with Sue. Welcome to Foreplay Sex Therapy. I’m Doctor Lori Watson, your sex therapist.

George Faller [00:01:02]:
And I’m George Faller, your couples therapist.

Laurie Watson [00:01:04]:
We are here to talk about sex.

George Faller [00:01:06]:
Our mission is to help couples talk about sex in ways that incorporate their body, their mind, and their hearts.

Laurie Watson [00:01:14]:
And we have a little bit of fun doing it. Right, G?

George Faller [00:01:17]:
Listen, and let’s change some relationships. Yeah, it’s a terribly sad day. Lori and I, we throw the word around “Legend” and “Amazing Person” so often but, I mean, Sue truly was an outlier person. You know, most of us never meet somebody who so separates themselves and can, kind of, really be an impact for change in the world. And I really think 100 years from now, people are still going to be talking about Sue Johnson, and EFT, and the work that she created. She’s been a pioneer for love and for helping people love better. And , as Lori’s saying, neither one of us would be here today without Sue Johnson.

Laurie Watson [00:01:57]:
That’s so true. And I think what I have appreciated about the work that she began is that it’s about love. I mean, she called out each partner in the coupleship to kind of love the other one better. And she was insistent on that! She could see the possibilities of love and ,kind of, her vision and her love for the couple. I mean, it was so beautiful. And I think many therapists sometimes treat people roughly and without kindness and empathy. She was all about love in both her work and her goal, you know, both places, and that just, I could cry thinking about it, like, how beautiful that is, how congruent it is.

George Faller [00:02:42]:
And she was an interesting messenger for that theory. I mean, some of Sue’s background: She grew up in an English pub, you know, blue-collar, tough. And Sue’s always been a fighter. I guess I’ve always loved that side of her. She’s this incredibly sensitive, can bring people to the most beautifully vulnerable spots. And yet, if you mess with us, she had no problem rolling up her sleeves and want to slay it out with you. I remember I’d ask her for advice. She just had this blend of feeling bad, but then being practical, like, “George, you just gotta kick the cycle’s ass”.

George Faller [00:03:20]:
You just gotta work harder. She just had this tough kind of push in her that way.

Laurie Watson [00:03:26]:
Right. It wasn’t Namby Pamby love. I mean, it was decidedly, like, on target and focused. And, I mean, she was there. I also saw her as I’ve been reviewing Facebook and everybody’s posting pictures of her. You know, she was wearing the T-shirt, “Pursuer Team”. And I’m like, “I love you, Sue”. I love that you were a pursuer and, you know, just, like, understood the heart and probably the issues of the pursuer, you know, so well.

George Faller [00:03:56]:
Yeah, I guess that balance between the heart and the brain, I mean, she was so gifted in so many areas. I mean, you can be really present with people and open up her heart and offer that comfort. But she was also wickedly smart. And, like, she knew every researcher, and she, I mean, I rarely can meet people that can kind of hold so many elements at the same time. And she was, she was a gifted therapist. She was a gifted teacher. She knew how to build communities.

George Faller [00:04:23]:
I mean, she did a lot of things well.

Laurie Watson [00:04:25]:
She did. I was in correspondence with her and I talked to her about the research of Birnbaum, who is the researcher in Israel that George and I have met-whom George and I have met. I’m just going to quote this, and I’m going to send this to Gurit. But Gurit Birnbaum is great, and she is the academic through and through in a separate and different world. And so, I mean, she did rely on research, and she herself researched. I mean, this was not just something she pulled out of the sky. I mean, this was based on solid research. EFT is founded on attachment theory.

Laurie Watson [00:05:05]:
It’s applied attachment theory. So it takes all the good knowledge that we have from research, but then what is so unique about it- It’s like,” But how do we make it work in people’s lives?” And that’s what she was a master at. She showed the steps.

George Faller [00:05:23]:
It’s good to have some history, right? When Sue came up with this model, you know, it was a time in the eighties and nineties, where Behavioral Therapy, Cognitive Therapy, was ruling the show. So she would talk about just developing this model, emotionally focused therapy, and she’d go to a conference and nobody would show up. Nobody. Here’s a woman talking about emotions, and nobody wanted. It would have been so easy for her to just quit, to say, forget it. Nobody wants to hear this anyway. And again, that tenacity, that fighter. And I was like, no, there’s something to this.

George Faller [00:06:00]:
There’s some truth to this that’s important for people here. And it was actually when she started to do research that people started to take interest. They couldn’t deny it. And to this point, emotionally focused therapy is the most evidence based model couple therapy in the world. Right. Gold standard. I mean, you can’t. There’s hundreds and hundreds of studies.

George Faller [00:06:19]:
But she was the start of that process. And, like, I couldn’t go to a military base to talk about feelings unless I had this stack of research behind me to support me. Right. So again, I think that was the key that really got this model on the forefront.

Laurie Watson [00:06:34]:
Right. And, you know, she was. She came of, her theory came of age, you know, when psychoanalysis was kind of ruling the day, and it was all about where you come from and the past, it wasn’t really present focused. And her new emphasis on present processing, like in live emotion, you know, just blew it away. And I believe she was trained psychoanalytically as well. I mean, she had deep training.

George Faller [00:07:01]:
Well, she was certainly a character. I would always encourage anybody that I. Any training I did, I was like, trained. She was my mentor. I mean, after 9/11, I was a new therapist, and I remembered a class I took, and they had mentioned an article on Sue Johnson and EFT. And it just resonated, actually, from my tactical brain. I loved cycles and patterns and seeing a system. And I was like, oh, this is.

George Faller [00:07:26]:
This is right up my alley. So, you know, besides going down at ground zero and dealing with all that, I was helping one day a week at the counseling unit. I was like, I have no idea what the hell I’m doing here. So I sent her an email. It’s just like, Sue Johnson? I don’t. You never met me before, but, you know, I’m a firefighter in New York City, and, you know, I need. I need some help. Can you send me a book, you know, a video of something just to help me help couples better? And she’s like, “Oh, my God!”

George Faller [00:07:53]:
“Yes, I will help you, but better yet, I will fly out and train you personally”. So who is the first person that, you know, came out and trained me right after 9/11 and trained our staff?

Laurie Watson [00:08:05]:
So that is amazing. Yeah, she was. Yeah, that’s. That’s an amazing gift. But her heart was moved. She got it. She got what you needed, and she was there for you. That’s so beautiful.

George Faller [00:08:19]:
Wasn’t big. It wasn’t. It was just about the mission. She was big on the mission. She knew that there were going to be a lot of hurting couples out there and families that needed support, and most of the support is treating symptoms. It wasn’t getting to the heart of it, helping people repair. She was a repair expert, so, you know, and that was helpful. And not only trained me, but my marriage was struggling.

George Faller [00:08:42]:
I didn’t know how to communicate a lot of these things. So we would have those conversations where she’d be sensitive and practical and, like, tell me what to do. And it’s like trying to help couples while I’m trying to help myself. And, like, she’s in the middle of orchestrating all that, so she really was like a second mother to me, certainly professionally. I guess that’s the saddest part for me to know. If anything happens, I could always call her up and say, Sue”. And she’d be like “Yes, George, all right, you should do this”.

George Faller [00:09:10]:
“You should do that”. And to know I can’t call her in that way anymore, it’s just really painful.

Laurie Watson [00:09:16]:
Yeah, it is so painful. I was going to the world conference this year. I am going to the world conference this year for EFT. But, specifically, I wanted to, as they say in the south, hug Sue’s neck. You know, it was like I really wanted to touch her, to be in person with her, even though I’ve talked to her several times, and I have a funny story. I have actually had Sue on the, you know, record with me, the podcast, three times, and George knows my special gift, which I am a. Whatever technology I come near, I blow up. And she agreed to talk with Adam and I many years ago about sexuality.

Laurie Watson [00:09:57]:
And so we recorded it, and somehow or another, her side of the recording was lost. So then she graciously agreed to re record with us, and so we rented a studio and did the whole thing. And as I recall, it was a stressful day because Adam was mad at me about, like, I hadn’t. I hadn’t told him, you know, where the studio was or something, and it was closer to his house than coming all the way out to meet me. And so we get to the studio, and we’re all stressed out, and we record the whole thing, and then the woman who was the tech person comes in and says, okay, you know, I got it. And I said, great. You know, can we hear it back? And there was no Sue recording. And I said, “What happened to Sue?” And she said, “Well, I didn’t realize…

Laurie Watson [00:10:49]:
I thought you were recording her side. I didn’t know I had to record her, too”. I’m like, “Why would we rent the studio?” So I have to eat crow twice, George. I was so embarrassed. This Great Trainer, World Class Trainer, and I have to go back to her and say,” I am so sorry, but our technology messed up again.” And I just. And you can imagine, right, G, that that would happen to me.

Laurie Watson [00:11:16]:
And then, of course, she agreed one more time to record with you and I. And we did. We did get it. And we had a great time with her. We had a great time with her. She was so much fun. And, you know, what kind of grace is that to give me three tries?

George Faller [00:11:33]:
I mean, if I. How many thousands of free podcasts, hours that she’s given out throughout her life. Right. Just to really help people in their times of need.

Laurie Watson [00:11:47]:
Exactly.

George Faller [00:11:48]:
Yeah.

Laurie Watson [00:11:48]:
Well, today we celebrate Sue’s life. We are committed to carrying on the legacy of her work. And we would just like to also talk a little bit about what, what we’ve learned from her about sexuality in this next part.

George Faller [00:12:06]:
So I’ll tell a couple firehouse stories, but just for our listeners to recommend her books, Hold Me Tight and Love Sense and create it for connection. Those books are written for the public, and they’ve been so helpful. And Attachment Theory and Practice is her main book for therapists. But just such great resources.

Laurie Watson [00:12:31]:
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Laurie Watson [00:15:26]:
Go to addyi.com and use the code “Foreplay” for a ten dollar telemedicine appointment to find out if Addyi is right for you. So I saw some pictures of her in the firehouse. She. What? What in the world? You terrified her. Right? You brought her on a wild ride on the…

George Faller [00:15:48]:
Yes.

Laurie Watson [00:15:49]:
… fire truck.

George Faller [00:15:51]:
It’s an interesting side of Sue…she so incredibly brave and tenacious, yet she was also anxious about a lot of things, and driving was one of them. She did not like driving.

Laurie Watson [00:16:02]:
Oh, my gosh.

George Faller [00:16:04]:
So you can imagine once she has to get. She stayed at my house, and I’m about an hour outside of the city, so we have to drive into the city to get to our first training. And there was bad traffic, and I was like…police offer, fireman. I’m driving on the side of the road, going around things, and, like, I didn’t know at the time that she was, like, white knuckle, like, this was trauma for her. She probably needs some. Some EMDR or something years later, but it was. And then I get after work, we go to the firehouse, and she has.

Laurie Watson [00:16:37]:
Wait, wait. I just gotta say. I gotta say. Cause I have driven with George Faller, and it is a wild ride. It’s like this man. Like, and he’s kind of an aggressive, angry driver, too. He’s swearing at people and, you know, and then he’s, you know, he’s trying to get there faster. Like, let’s beat that car to the light.

Laurie Watson [00:16:58]:
Oh, it’s crazy. So I can imagine her terror is.

George Faller [00:17:01]:
Later when I’m a bit calmer. Imagine I was a little bit more.

Laurie Watson [00:17:07]:
You have to endure my tech voodoo, but I have to endure your driving.

George Faller [00:17:13]:
There you go. We all have.

Laurie Watson [00:17:14]:
So Sue survived, but she’s completely traumatized.

George Faller [00:17:19]:
We do the training, and then afterwards we go to the firehouse for dinner, which, you know, was easy for her. She loved being in groups and holding courts and just kind of. She loved the attention. She was pretty extroverted with that. The size of the steak that they dumped on her plate with this big thing of potatoes. And she was just like, “This is for one person! My whole family could eat this!” and everybody was having fun with that. But then afterwards, well, she went on a ride, too, in a fire truck.

Laurie Watson [00:17:49]:
We got a call, and she was able to kind of jump in with us and see that was another probably traumatic moment for her because I didn’t know she had this fear of driving. And now she’s in a fire truck in New York City racing through red lights. So that was. So it maybe makes sense why later that night, you know, we left, and she’s like, I need, let’s stop by at the bar. And it’s the first time I was like, oh, maybe she wants a glass of wine. We’re just going to continue to have a conversation, and she orders us shots of scotch. I’ve never drank scotch in my life before this. I’m like, wow, this is interesting.

George Faller [00:18:22]:
This lady wants to do. So there we are, spending the night doing shots of scotch together as we’re having philosophical conversations about a little bit of everything. She was a really great conversational. She was interested in so many things. She had not only strong opinions, but she wanted to know other opinions. She wanted to know other truths. She really liked to wrestle with ideas.

Laurie Watson [00:18:43]:
That is so fun. Shots with Sue in New York City with the firefighters. Scotch, so cool.

George Faller [00:18:51]:
It put hair on my chest, some of those shots.

Laurie Watson [00:18:54]:
Because you were very young, as I recall at that time. I was young, yeah, yeah, yeah. How neat. You have the best stories of Sue. I also had the opportunity, just professionally, to correspond with her. You know, George and I wrote an article on the sexual cycle, and some of it has been published, but we sent it wholesale to Sue to read when we first began working in the sexual cycle to see, you know, her criticism, her and, you know, what she thought about what we were doing. And, I mean, it was really. She gave good feedback, you know, that she…

Laurie Watson [00:19:32]:
She understood where we were going. She was very supportive of the fact that we were demonstrating how to particularly, she said, re eroticize and reattach in the sexual cycle. And that was so encouraging to me, you know, as a professional. It’s just encouraging to me that she would stinkin’ read the thing, you know? I mean, that. That, to me, was an honor.

Laurie Watson [00:19:53]:
Well, it was. She was a lady ahead of her times with sex, too, right? When the field is focusing on behaviors and novelty and medications, and here she is saying, “Hey, that stuff’s important, but how about we pay attention to the state of the emotional bond?” This is super important. We need to get involved. And I remember how all of us were like, why are you talking about sex now so much? It’s because nobody’s talking about it. She again led in that area to say, people need to start paying attention to the safety, to the sense of connection, to the vulnerability. All the things now that we take for granted that we say, yeah, duh, this is what great lovers do. The research is saying it. She was out in front of most and saying, no, we need to have these tough conversations.

George Faller [00:20:44]:
Another area I remember her talking about. Not a lot of people wanted to hear what she had to say.

Laurie Watson [00:20:49]:
Yeah, exactly.

George Faller [00:20:51]:
About sex.

Laurie Watson [00:20:52]:
Yeah. And she told me, she said, you know, therapists don’t bring up sex because they don’t know what to do with it. And that’s like our whole point when we are teaching, right, with therapists, is we want to show them what to do about it. We want to help people. Just couples out there. That’s why we do Foreplay, is how do you talk about it? How do you bring this up? How do you talk to each other about it?

George Faller [00:21:16]:
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. She had such a good sense of humor. You know, we used to go to her lake house in Ottawa and do a retreat. This was when there was only, like, 15 trainers. And, you know, through the years, it would increase. But, you know, I remember going there and they used to call me like a nemesis in the. This lake.

George Faller [00:21:37]:
We’d swim to the island. I don’t know how. It was like a mile swim, but it was like a dark lake water. So I would always swim underneath, deep, and I would grab people’s feet and scare them. They thought it’s a fish or alligator or snake or something. People would scream. So she would get a kick out of it. And sometimes her and I would get on a kayak and just go out and we would just talk.

George Faller [00:21:56]:
She loved the kayak and just kind of swimming up on swans and stuff. But I remember her saying, like, all right, George, who are you gonna get today? She would go for people I should mess with, and she was just.

Laurie Watson [00:22:07]:
She was an imp. She was an imp. Part of her, yeah. Those were back in your long haired days, right?

George Faller [00:22:17]:
Long, short. I mixed it up a little bit.

Laurie Watson [00:22:20]:
Oh, okay. I’ve only seen the long-haired videos of you and Sue doing karaoke in the car.

George Faller [00:22:30]:
Those are the things that it’s just nice to. To get to see the human side of somebody. She had plenty of struggles and shortcomings like the rest of us, and she was open to that.

Laurie Watson [00:22:43]:
She was. And she talked about that. She didn’t pretend that she was perfect. She would talk about losing her temper and I mean, all kinds of things. Being a therapist doesn’t mean you’re a perfect human. And I think I appreciated that, that she could admit to that and talk about it and be so human, you know, need this herself.

George Faller [00:23:06]:
Yeah. The world’s a bit of a darker place with her light not being here. But, I mean, for me, that’s where my faith tradition is, is helpful, knowing that, you know, there’s a God of love out there and here’s a lady who devoted her life to love that she’s kind of getting her reward in heaven, and. And I get a chance to meet her again someday.

Laurie Watson [00:23:32]:
Those are beautiful thoughts. I’m glad that you have that comfort. Yeah. Yesterday I was tearful all day. It did feel like we were missing something in the world without her. I just. I feel that and, you know, read so much of that all day, people whose lives she had touched.

George Faller [00:23:55]:
Yeah. Well, when you have secure attachment, the good news about that is you hold onto it, even if the person isn’t physically present anymore. I will always hold Sue Johnson securely attached to me. I could hear a voice in my head when I want to talk about something, and that’s an eternal gift, and I trust. I don’t know if you could do shots up in heaven of scotch, but she’s probably up there waiting with one of those for me.

Laurie Watson [00:24:27]:
Yep. A scotch shot with Sue Johnson in heaven. That sounds like a great thing.

George Faller [00:24:33]:
Sounds like a fun time.

Laurie Watson [00:24:35]:
A fun time, for sure. Well, I think we should. We should all celebrate with a shot of scotch this evening. To Sue Johnson.

George Faller [00:24:44]:
To Sue Johnson.

Laurie Watson [00:24:45]:
To the love that she left. To the legacy of love that she fought for.

George Faller [00:24:51]:
Mmm. Amen.

Laurie Watson [00:24:54]:
Thanks for listening to us. Sue. We love you, and we are grateful for your work in this world.

George Faller [00:25:03]:
God bless you, Sue Johnson. Thank you for all you’ve done for so many. We’re not going to forget you, ever.

Laurie Watson [00:25:11]:
Okay, so tell us about your cutting edge training that you’re doing on success and vulnerability.

George Faller [00:25:17]:
Laurie. We just keep pushing it. Coming up with a new module on the playbook of a pursuer, playbook of a withdrawer. Really practical, moment by moment moves of what a therapist can use. And we’re so focused on what’s happening in session enough. There’s talk about theories and these global things I think most therapists are looking for. What do I do in this moment? Give me a tool, George. So that’s what we’re trying to do.

Laurie Watson [00:25:43]:
That’s awesome. I am so glad you guys are doing this work. I think it helps us be organized to see you do it. You do demos, you do explanations, teaching. It really is interactive, and I think that so many trainings that we sit through don’t give us an opportunity for that. So what you’re doing is really important.

George Faller [00:26:02]:
No. We try to emphasize the teach it, show it, do it model of learning. You need to have some ideas, and so we try to teach those, and then we try to show what it looks like implementing those ideas. But most importantly, you now get to practice it. That’s how they become yours. And that’s what we want our listeners and watchers to do and, it becomes their own moves.

Laurie Watson [00:26:21]:
Find George and his teaching at Successandvulnerability.com.

Joe Davis – Announcer [00:26:25]:
Call in your questions to the Foreplay question voicemail. Dial 833-my4play. That’s 833-my, the number 4, play. And we’ll use choose the questions for our mailbag episodes. All content is for entertainment purposes only and should not be considered as a substitute for therapy by a licensed clinician or as medical advice from a doctor. This podcast is copyrighted by Foreplay Med