Joe Davis – Announcer [00:00:00]:

Caesar’s Sportsbook is the only sportsbook app with Caesars rewards. Win or lose, every bet you place brings you closer to hotel stays, bonus bets, game tickets and more. Download the app using promo code iHeart 1000 and place your first bet today. Must be 21 plus and physically present. In North Carolina. New users only. Must register using eligible promo code. First bet after registration must qualify. Max bonus bet $1,000. Bonus bet expires 14 days after received. Void where prohibited.

Joe Davis – Announcer [00:00:19]:

See Caesars.com/promos for full terms. Tribal Casino Gaming Enterprise is the licensed operator by the North Carolina State Lottery Commission. No when to stop before you start. Gambling problem? Call 1-877-718-5543 or visit Morethangame.NC.gov.The following content is not suitable for children.

George Faller [00:00:33]:

School of Love is back in session. Here we go. Today we’re going to talk about negative cycles in both the emotional and the sexual cycle. Baby.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:00:43]:

Okay.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:00:43]:

Welcome to Foreplay sex therapy.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:00:46]:

I’m Doctor LaurieWatson, your sex therapist.

George Faller [00:00:51]:

And I’m George Faller, your couples therapist.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:00:53]:

We are here to talk about sex.

George Faller [00:00:55]:

Our mission is to help couples talk about sex in ways that incorporate their body, their mind, and their hearts.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:01:03]:

And we have a little bit of fun doing it, right, G?

George Faller [00:01:07]:

Listen. And let’s change some relationships.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:01:09]:

So, G, lead us off in the emotional cycle.

George Faller [00:01:13]:

Well, again, we’re connecting creatures. We are designed to be in relationship. When it’s working, our body senses signals. And when it’s not working, when we’re in disconnection, the body only has a few moves to protect itself when we’re in disconnection. It’s not what we want. So either fight or flight. There goes those sympathetic nervous system responses. We have fight, flight, or freeze, but we’re mostly going to talk about fight or flight.

George Faller [00:01:40]:

So that fight response, which we all do, some of both. But a lot of us fall into more of, generally one category than the other, right? We’re not trying to force people into one box, but we are just trying to get people to be curious. In this present moment, how is your body protecting yourself? Are you fighting? Which a lot of the times, people who tend to fight more often, we call pursuers. Their strategy is to try to influence the outcome. It’s trying to create change. It wants to push for a conversation because there’s hope in that. So we’ll talk about that kind of pushing energy, and then you have this more what we call withdrawing energy, which is trying to turn down heat. They find safety in not making things worse or things escalating.

George Faller [00:02:29]:

So taking space is a way of trying to protect themselves and protect the relationship. So those are your two typical categories, fight or flight, that we’re going to talk about the way these different patterns will play out.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:02:42]:

Okay, well, what does fight look like in the pursuing emotional cycle? What happens when we’re dysregulated and we want to fight? Because you and I know nothing about that.

George Faller [00:02:53]:

Nothing. Right. Laurie, being facetious. We are always trying to connect to the function of something and then expose the impact of it. Right. Which the intent and impact are usually very different. The healthy intent in the fight is, you know, listen, I want to get your attention. I want to start talking about change. I’m really hoping you’re going to listen to me.

George Faller [00:03:17]:

Right. There’s power in that move, a sense of agency. There’s a sense of hope that I’m going to be heard. You know, I’m going to be listened to. So that that’s the beauty in health. But often times the impact, you know, in its high tone or, you know, it’s. It’s wanting to express itself. It sends a message to the partner that they’re doing something wrong, that they’re failing, and it sets off their defenses.

George Faller [00:03:42]:

So the first thing we want to start with is there’s always an ouch or a threat or a fear underneath the protection. The protection is just an action tendency, right. The body is feeling the threat of disconnection, so it’s mobilizing. So that’s what we’re talking about to pursue is mobilization. But to really understand that fight response, you got to understand the threat underneath it. Right. And usually the threat is the person’s not listening. They’re not engaging, they’re rejecting.

George Faller [00:04:10]:

There, you know, there’s some sense, typically, of rejection underneath that causes the body to say, I don’t like that. What are you doing to me? And it starts to focus on the other person, and it doesn’t really talk about that more vulnerable spot.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:04:25]:

Yeah, exactly. The fear inside is what motivates this fight, and the fear can be, I’m going to be rejected. You won’t love me. I’ll lose the connection, which to me is about survival. Being connected to somebody is about survival. And so even insignificant fights are often rooted in this kind of primitive place because our person is so important to us. You know, that survival part is in our brain. Like, I need you in a desperate way. And so then it triggers these feelings that are kind of not necessarily proportional to the offense, you know, but the fight can come out like we’re fighting for our life and we are!

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:05:06]:

That’s what’s going on.

George Faller [00:05:07]:

Exactly. And that’s, I mean, that’s the whole point of a defensive move is we get tunnel vision and it’s, it focuses externally on a threat, the person causing it. It doesn’t share these vulnerable fears on the inside. So that’s, yeah, the pursuers energy is going to be like, I’m always lonely because you never come home on time, you never keep your word. And the energy is focusing on the other person and what they’re doing to trigger this. And they’re not expressing any of the other stuff on the inside that’s going on.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:05:38]:

Not their vulnerability.

George Faller [00:05:40]:

Not their vulnerability. Because again, it doesn’t feel safe. You’re already hurting. So your body says, change the person that’s hurting you, what they’re doing. So really just trying to connect to that healthy intent, but really try to get pursuers. We’ll talk about it in the next school of love. Right. Well, how they can go underneath it.

George Faller [00:05:58]:

But this is about meeting them in their anger. And sometimes their anger brings up the fighting anger in their partner. So you can get different iterations of what it could look like. You can get two pursuers that are both fighting it out and yelling at each other. What we’d call like an attack, attack cycle. Right. It’s like you’re lying. No, you’re lying.

George Faller [00:06:18]:

They’re just kind of firing away at each other.

Joe Davis – Announcer [00:06:21]:

Caesar’s sportsbook is the only sportsbook app with Caesar’s rewards. Win or lose, every bet you place brings you closer to hotel stays, bonus bets, game tickets and more. Download the app using promo code iHeart 1000 and place your first bet today. Must be 21 plus and physically present in North Carolina,.New users only. Must register using eligible promo code. First bet after registration must qualify. Max bonus bet $1,000. Bonus bet expires 14 days after received. Void were prohibited. See Caesars.com/promos for full terms. Tribal Casino Gaming Enterprise is the licensed operator by the North Carolina State Lottery Commission.

Joe Davis – Announcer [00:06:46]:

No when to stop before you start. Gambling problem? Call 1-877-718-5543 or visit Morethanagame.NC.gov.

George Faller [00:06:52]:

You’ll get the two withdrawers where both of them don’t want to fight. Both of them want to protect each other and protect themselves and like, they’re like roommates, but they did. There’s not a lot of fighting. The most common is one pursuer, one withdrawal, which we talk about a lot. But you can get complex cycles where people have disorganized attachment. And they both pursue, withdraw at the same time. So again, we’re not trying to force people into a box, but we’re really just trying to get them in that moment. Are you, are you in that pursuing mode where you’re trying to get attention to the problem or.

George Faller [00:07:27]:

We’ll talk about next, that withdrawing role. Right. So you wanna talk about that?

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:07:33]:

Yeah. Tell us that you’re right. I mean, these can go in different matches. Pursue/withdraw, pursue/pursue, withdraw/withdraw. Talk a little bit more about the withdraw strategy as a survival mechanism. What happens inside the withdrawer? What’s their vulnerability? What’s their motive? But then, what does it look like and how does it land on their pursuing partner?

George Faller [00:07:55]:

Again, for a withdrawer, when they pick up a threat, that threat, that message in the anger is they’re doing something wrong. They’re failing, they’re coming up short, they’re letting their partner down. They tend to want to perform and do a good job and they get a lot of feedback in the world when they do that. So they’re sensitive to the message that they’re coming up short and they try to fix that problem. But if it feels like they’re not fixing that problem, to stay engaged in a conversation where somebody continues to come at them with anger and criticism. The fear is that is only going to make things worse. Right.

George Faller [00:08:31]:

You might say something you regret. You know, you can’t take back words like letting your brain get more and more activated and read is scary. So literally taking space and walking away is what they do to regulate themselves. They don’t trust co-regulation. They don’t trust the space and the emotions in the space. They trust going away by themselves to self-soothe. It’s easier to go away, to kind of reset, to think more clearly. Right.

George Faller [00:09:00]:

So the going away is what they do to feel safe.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:09:03]:

Withdrawers don’t always just react to the pursuing pressure and criticism. Sometimes they are, they are trained to not bring up things that bother them. You know, they down regulate their own needs as well. They don’t correct the relationship very well. And so they kind of may be unhappy because they would rather keep it inside and be unhappy than risk a conflict. So it’s, it’s another pattern.

George Faller [00:09:31]:

They don’t have success with their vulnerable emotions. Would it make sense if you just try to ride those out and refocus on something positive or get back to performing that? They don’t really know what to do with their partner’s negative emotions. So this has nothing to do with them not caring or them not wanting to help. It’s just how they’ve learned. The best way to deal with negative emotions is to go off and just kind of let them pass and just kind of self-soothe yourself. Right. So they’re just doing what, they’re just loving the way they’ve learned to love themselves. You look at withdrawers, you know, they tend to be in childhood left alone.

George Faller [00:10:07]:

You know, people don’t respond to their emotions, you know, and whatever the good reasons, we developed these two strategies. But really honoring that avoidance as a way of creating safety, the impact is exactly the opposite. They’re walking away. Their partner feels like they don’t care. They’re not interested. They’re not engaging.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:10:26]:

They’re not engaging.

George Faller [00:10:27]:

They just, they’re so overwhelmed and they don’t have a lot of confidence staying engaged is going to help with that. So they really need to protect themselves and find that safety in going away.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:10:39]:

I would just add, you know, I was dealing with a typical withdrawing partner this week in session, and we’ve been working together for a very long time. And he brought up to me some concerns that he had about the relationship. His feelings got hurt. And I’m like, okay, did you talk to your partner about that? And he said, no, I didn’t. And I said, I just want you to observe this, that here there is something that you want changed. And believe it or not, I think if you engaged your partner with that and told her what you were wanting, she would feel like you were concerned about the relationship. She wouldn’t hear it necessarily as criticism of her. She would feel it as engagement.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:11:20]:

And he’s like, you’re absolutely right, you know, I know that would be true for her, you know, so I think the withdrawer, that engagement is the opposite of soothing themselves. Plus, if they engage with their partner, they get a happier relationship. I know it’s fearful, though. I know that they don’t do that typically.

George Faller [00:11:39]:

And that’s the difference between a lot of times you can explain to withdrawers that what they need to do and they agree with you, but their body has no muscle memory of doing that. So when they’re in a green brain and they’re like, I know I shouldn’t walk away, I should express my feelings, like that makes sense. But at the moment they get afraid, that action tendency takes over. We know these emotions are quick, they’re well entrenched, and, you know, so we’re going to get more deeply into how you change it later in the school of love. But right now, we’re just trying to get you to identify what your moves are. And how do these moves fall into patterns? So is do one of you tend to be the one who kind of brings up conversation and initiates and pushes for it, and the other one doesn’t really want to make things worse and tends to go away. That would be a classic pursuer/withdrawer pattern. Right? Do both of you really not want to bring it up? You’re like kind of roommates and you love each other, but you.

George Faller [00:12:33]:

It’s hard to kind of confront some of these topics and you both withdrawers. Is it more chaotic? You know, there might be more going on. Whatever pattern we find ourselves in, it always makes sense. But if you can name it, you can start to tame it, right? You can start to recognize what do we need to do differently? Humans, when we see patterns, we can change patterns. So this is the first step in just recognizing what are the patterns that we tend to fall into consistently over time, and then we can start coming up with a plan how to do that differently.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:13:08]:

Great. Thank you, G. So let’s come back and talk about the strategies, the survival mechanisms that we have in the sexual cycle.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:13:20]:

I love Uber Lube. It is my go-to lubricant for the last 25 years. I’ve recommended it highly. I’ve used it myself. There’s no taste. No smell. There’s nothing to interfere with your intimate moments. It washes off easy with soap and water. Listen, it doesn’t contain any water. It doesn’t have a Ph. Your vagina will be happy. It doesn’t disturb your delicate balance. You can use it for sex in the shower. Go ahead and explore all those mermaid fantasies.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:13:48]:

Seriously. You can use it with condoms. It’s okay with latex.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:13:51]:

You can even use Uber Lube for.chafe protection against sports.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:13:54]:

I’m serious. You can buy little travel packets and take it on your summer travel so that you can have sex whenever you’re away. And it’s easy peasy. It is in the classiest glass bottle with beautiful writing. You can keep it on your bed stand. Honestly, nobody would even think that it’s lube. They would think it’s like a perfume bottle. It is beautiful.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:14:13]:

Trust me. Go to uberlube.com. Use the code “foreplay”. Uberlube.com/foreplay. Get your 10% off. I’m telling you, it is skin friendly. It is quality. It is my favorite.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:14:26]:

Warmer, sunnier days are calling. Fuel up for them with Factors no prep, no mess meals. Meet your wellness goals in time for summer and thanks to the menu of the chef-crafted meals with options like calorie smart, protein plus and keto. Y’all, I told my kids, with a brand new baby, you need Factor. It makes life so much easier. No fuss, no muss, no cleaning up, no grocery shopping. Factor’s fresh, never frozen meals are dietitian approved. They’re ready to eat in two minutes. You don’t even have to unfreeze them.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:15:00]:

They come fresh. So no matter how busy you are, you’ll always have time to enjoy the nutritious, great tasting meals. With 35 different meals and more than 60 add-ons to choose from every week, you’ll have all the new flavors to explore. Keep kitchen time to a minimum. Head to Factorymeals.com/foreplay50 and use the code Foreplay50 to get 50% off your your first box plus 20% off your next month. That’s code Forplay50 at Factormeals.com/foreplay50 to get 50% off your first box plus 20% off your next month while your subscription is active.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:15:39]:

Ladies, blink if you haven’t purchased a Father’s Day gift yet. Yeah, we thought so.Today’s episode is brought to you by Manscaped. The leaders in below-the-waste grooming. Whether it’s for your husband or your baby daddy, our friends at Manscaped have crafted the total package for his special day. Whether it’s for the boys downstairs, his beard, or even the best pair of underwear out there, manscaped has his bases covered, if you know what I mean. Head over to manscaped.com and get 20% off and free shipping with our code Foreplay. You know that beard trimmer that every daddy’s been using for way too long? Yeah, it probably needs upgrading. Introducing the Beard Hedger Pro Kit. The complete beard maintenance kit for all the bearded kings. If he carries a lot of body hair like most men do, you’re in luck with the performance package 5.0 Ultra. This bad boy is designed with Father’s Day in mind, featuring the signature Lawnmower 5.0.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:16:40]:

And if your husband can’t seem to stop stealing your nail clippers all the time, this Father’s Day gift is the perfect time to have him finally have a kid of his own that will last a lifetime. And just for fun, that set of underwear he got for Christmas a decade ago definitely needs upgrading. And what a better way than Manscaped’s Boxer 2.0? Y’all get 20% off and free shipping with the code Foreplay manscaped.com. that’s 20% off with [email protected] and use the code Foreplay. Never forget where you came from, and if you know what I mean, Happy Father’s Day from Manscaped.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:17:18]:

Many of you reach out to me for couples counseling and personalized help. If you want to dramatically improve your intimacy in a short amount of time, I do offer privately scheduled couple counseling intensives. It’s like a private couple’s retreat. It’s 12 to 16 hours in Raleigh. Maybe you need to get through the emotional cycle where one of you is suffering, feeling rejected, or the other one is feeling abandoned. Or maybe you need a jolt to your sex life. Together, we can work through this. We set goals.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:17:47]:

We dive deep into your dynamics, figure out your negative cycle. We work through the sexual and the emotional problems, and then we often have a dramatic breakthrough. So you can call my office or you can contact at Awakeningcenter.org.

George Faller [00:18:06]:

All right, Laurie, let’s do this. Sexual cycle pursuers/withdrawers.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:18:12]:

I also want to say that when we’re babies, right, our very survival depends on physical attachment. So then when we hit puberty, sexual attachment, eroticism becomes kind of the way we express it in our romantic relationship. And it can feel quite desperate when this is dysregulated for us sexually. Our body can actually hurt when we get rejected or when we get asked and we end up being a disappointment to our partner. And again, there’s two strategies here, right? The first one would be the pursuing strategy. And this is not pursuing sex is not the same thing as having drive for sex. Having drive for sex is healthy. Wanting sex is healthy. It’s when we get preoccupied with sex, when we kind of can’t think about our partner’s perspective in it, when we get entrenched in our own world and when we get anxious.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:19:09]:

So what separates out drive from pursuit is anxiety. That’s the marker. So we’re not talking about that wanting a lot of sex is a bad thing. We’re talking about when you get anxious about not having enough sex. And this is what happens with the pursuers sexually, right? They get mentally preoccupied with sex not because they’re sexual beings and they like to think about and fantasize about it. That’s all fine. It’s like they’re mentally preoccupied that it won’t happen enough. My partner’s not going to give it.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:19:46]:

They focus on their partner’s lack of receptivity or their partner’s lack of drive or whatever, but they start to be anxious and their little brain starts, you know, spinning circles in, in their mind about how it’s not going to happen, it’s not going to be good enough. I’m not going to get the sex I want all these things that we tell ourselves as sexual pursuers.

George Faller [00:20:09]:

You notice I used a little brain. I think there are a lot of big brains in these sexual pursuers. Just for the record there. All right, Laurie. No, but I. We’re having fun. But I do think it’s. I like the framework, right, that, that need to initiate sex is incredibly healthy.

George Faller [00:20:26]:

But when it’s threatened, it’s not now coming from that healthy kind of longing. It’s coming from the anxiety of being rejected. That’s the Ouch. That’s the threat that usually creates this preoccupied brain that’s going to start finding all these ways to push and try to get that need met. But how, it’s. How do we start off with honoring the anxiety that’s normal for humans when we’re. We’re not getting what we’re looking for, right.

George Faller [00:20:54]:

And we’re trying to motivate change. We’re trying to get this problem fixed. But most of the time, how we get the problem fixed is we focus it all on what the other person’s doing or not doing. Right. We’re not talking about ourselves anymore.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:21:08]:

Exactly. And I think that inside the pursuing cycle sexually are a lot of deep fears. I mean, particularly our own fear about not being a good lover, not being attractive enough, our body not being acceptable or sexy. I mean, how awful is it to think about your partner not being attracted to you? That’s pretty awful. And that’s a very logical conclusion. If your partner doesn’t want sex, I’m not enough.

George Faller [00:21:38]:

Yeah. There’s only two ways. There’s only two ways of making sense of it. When you’re rejected, either my partner sucks or I suck, and we all probably have some combination of those two things. Kind of.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:21:51]:

Sure, my partner is selfish and won’t give to me what is my due or what we agreed on or whatever, so that they’re problematic, or I’m problematic because I’m just not good enough in bed and not beautiful enough, not sexy enough, not buff enough, don’t have a flat stomach. Whatever it is that we worry about, that becomes a preoccupation, too, you know? And that fear kind of drives us. Please reassure me. We’re really often asking for sex for reassurance. And that is different, George, than asking for sex because we desire our partner. And that comes through. That comes through to our partner that we’re wanting something from them that has nothing to do with playful, joyful sexual encounter. It’s like we’re needing the reassurance.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:22:42]:

And rather than maybe asking for that verbally, hey, do you think I’m attractive? We’re pushing for sex to soothe something inside. And so this begins the pursue cycle, the strategy to get sex that sometimes, frankly, and this is when it goes really bad, you know, we can become manipulative and coercive with it. And that’s part of sexual pursuit that is unhealthy for sure. You know, when we start to maybe be angry, you know, and put down our partner, you know, you’re frigid. You never want sex. Aren’t you a man? Aren’t you much of a woman? You know, all these other people want me, you don’t want me. And you know, that push, of course it’s going to land on our partner is very damaging.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:23:26]:

But it is part of the cycle.

George Faller [00:23:28]:

Yeah. And again, I just want to continue to break down intent and impact. Because the intent, even in manipulation occurs, is to try to create change because you don’t want to feel the pain and the rejection. So again, there’s a healthy intent in what we’re trying to get done. It’s just the impact, it causes mistrust and, you know, all the other things that just makes the likelihood of us getting this healthy thing met really more and more unlikely over time. That’s what a negative cycle is. Both people lose. Both defenses create, you know, this, this, this negative impact that really robs the couple of its safety.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:24:07]:

Exactly. And I would say withdrawing partners, I want to talk about their defenses too. Because when we hear somebody say, I just don’t want sex, it almost sounds like that’s the ball game. Well, if they don’t want sex, they don’t want sex. Like, almost like it’s appetite. I’m full, I’m not hungry anymore, so I’m not going to eat food. And if your partner says, I just don’t want sex, that can be really scary. But they actually have a piece inside that is actively down-regulating their own sexual needs.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:24:42]:

Maybe because of withdrawal, they feel something inside about the sexual encounters, maybe about the sexual relationship, but maybe just about letting go and surrendering to the sexual moment that they don’t articulate, they don’t talk about. And instead they use these withdrawing strategies. They stop themselves. This is what’s crazy. They stop themselves from feeling sexual desire. They don’t even pay attention anymore to their own sexual needs.,George, they put those aside. And this obviously takes them out of the sexual mode.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:25:21]:

And it’s not just inactive. It’s not just well I’m not hungry for sex. It’s actually that there’s something, and it’s nothing conscious. They’re not doing this on purpose to their partner, but as a reaction, a survival reaction to what’s happening between them and their partner, what’s happening inside themselves. They inhibit their sexual desire and they dismiss their sexual needs.

George Faller [00:25:45]:

And we’re always trying to connect first before we stretch and get them to see the impact. So with pursuers, we’re trying to connect and honor the anxiety. Here we’re trying to honor the avoidance. People have good reasons to avoid their emotional reality. If the messages that they’re hearing, you know, that they’re bad or they shouldn’t be doing this or letting people down or they’re broken, I mean, those are nasty places. And trying to avoid touching those places makes a lot of sense in the short term to the body. Right? So that’s so often what they’re doing. This isn’t a choice that they’re trying to do.

George Faller [00:26:19]:

It’s like their body recognizes if. If you go down this road, some bad stuff is lurking. So just don’t go down the road. Don’t look at it. And yet the price of that is they lose their desire. There’s a lot that comes with it. But how do we start off with just getting the good reasons they go this road, which is all about avoiding kind of bad feelings, right?

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:26:41]:

And again, you just talked about how some of the bad feelings come from the cycle. You know, the sexual cycle, the negative sexual cycle, where their partner sends them the message that they’re not enough. And sometimes they can repress, they can just pull back. Sometimes they can push back by saying to their partner something disparaging about the sexual bid. They could say something like, you know, all you want is sex. That’s the only thing you’re all interested in, all of that. So they put down their partner. It’s a pushback, you know, because we know withdrawers sometimes push back, and sometimes they just shut down.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:27:16]:

And the other shutdown is more of that own repression of their own sexuality and eroticism. And they can even shut down their body in the moment. And some of this is reactive, but some of it is reactive to an internal part of them. I’ve learned that this deactivation can be maybe because of trauma, maybe because letting go an orgasm is kind of this scary moment or whatever. There’s reasons that entering the sexual moment feels so scary to the person who is withdrawing. And so they suppress their arousal, their orgasm, they dial it down, they stop it. I’ve had so many women talk to me, George, that are sexual withdrawers about the moment right before orgasm where they literally like turn it off because the thought of entering that place of I don’t know what’s going to happen when my body lets go is scary. Yeah, it’s really, really scary.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:28:16]:

So they suppress all of that.

George Faller [00:28:18]:

And a lot of this is not conscious. It’s not like people are making choices. It’s what their body has learned to do in these stressful situations. And that’s why we’re trying to slow this down. There’s so much power in, this is what we call step two in EFT, right? Being able to identify the protective moves. And most people, they just say, yeah, I know, I pursue, I withdraw, but they don’t give it the space it needs to really listen to the wisdom in this protective moves and your partner’s protective moves to really kind of take the time to honor the anxiety and the avoidance. Without these moves we wouldn’t be here today. I mean these things keep us alive, keep us going, right? But yes, then they become part of the problem.

George Faller [00:29:03]:

Our brain starts to anticipate, you know, threat all over the place. And even in healthy encounters we start falling back into these protective moves and it takes on a life of its own, which we’ll talk about a little bit later. But you’re going to start seeing these negative cycles where one person, you know, protests by their anxiety says, hey, are you listening to me? And as soon as I say that, you know, Janie’s brain’s like, oh shit, here we go again. He’s upset with me. I don’t want to fight. And she walks away, right? And we’re both threatened and we’re both.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:29:36]:

Or Janie goes to bed early so that she can’t be asked for sex. Right. You know, I mean it’s a, it’s also an anxious strategy as well. Avoidance is trying to avoid. You get anxious in this, in the cycle about, oh my God, there’s going to be a fight, maybe if I just, you know, am not around, he can’t approach me.

George Faller [00:29:57]:

So sometimes these cycles are really clear and you’ll be able to identify it just in about 5 seconds. And other times it’s a little bit more complicated because people switch roles, right. They might pursue emotionally and then withdraw sexually. But what we can guarantee you is there is always a cycle and there is always protective moves in the cycle. And the more that you can start to name those protective moves and start to name your partner’s protective moves, you could start recognizing you’re getting caught up in something. You’re getting caught up in something bigger than just what your yellow brain is seeing or the information that you’re getting. And that’s super empowering because that’s the start of, of how we could start changing and we have to start seeing the bigger picture and naming these cycles.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:30:49]:

Exactly. And I think that the way we see the bigger picture is curiosity. Curiosity about ourselves, curiosity about our partners defenses is the antidote to anxiety. So…

George Faller [00:31:01]:

Amen with that one. So that’s why, hopefully, if you’re listening to this podcast, your brain is curious. That’s why you’re listening to this. This is the best time to start thinking about your cycle. It’s too hard to do in the middle of a fight with your partner, but with a little space and a little like now, you’ll be like, huh? Who am I and what am I? And it’s normal for most people to be like, I do a little of both. And again, just have conversations and your pattern will become more explicit.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:31:28]:

Thanks for listening.

George Faller [00:31:31]:

Check out those cycles, baby.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:31:33]:

Okay, so tell us about your cutting edge training that you’re doing on success and vulnerability.

George Faller [00:31:39]:

Laurie, we just keep pushing it, coming up with a new module on the playbook of a pursuer, playbook of a withdrawer, really practical moment by moment moves of what a therapist can use. And we’re so focused on what’s happening in session enough. There’s talk about theories and these global things I think most therapists are looking for “What do I do in this moment? Give me a tool, George”. So that’s what we’re trying to do.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:32:05]:

That’s awesome. I am so glad you guys are doing this work. I think it helps us be organized to see you do it. You do demos, you do explanations, teaching. It really is interactive, and I think that so many trainings that we sit through don’t give us an opportunity for that. So what you’re doing is really important.

George Faller [00:32:44]:

No, we try to emphasize the teach it/show it/do it model of learning. You need to have some ideas. So we try to teach those, and then we try to show what it looks like implementing those ideas. But most importantly, you now got to practice it. That’s how they become yours. And that’s what we want our listeners and watchers to do is become their own moves.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:33:08]:

Find George and his teaching at successandvulnerability.com.

George Faller [00:32:46]:

Call in your questions to the Foreplay question voicemail. Dial 833-MY4PLAY. That’s 833, my, the number 4, play and well use the questions for our mailbag episodes. All content is for entertainment purposes only and should not be considered as a substitute for therapy by a licensed clinician or as medical advice from a doctor. This podcast is copyrighted by Foreplay Media.

Joe Davis – Announcer [00:33:09]:

Caesars Sportsbook is the only sportsbook app with Caesars rewards. Win or lose, every bet you place brings you closer to hotel stays, bonus bets, game tickets and more. Download the app using promo code iHeartrade 1000 and place your first bet today. Must be 21 plus and physically present. in North Carolina. New users only. Must register using eligible promo code. First bet after registration must qualify. Max bonus bet $1,000. Bonus bet expires 14 days after received. Void were prohibited. See caesars.com/promos for full terms.

Joe Davis – Announcer [00:33:30]:

Tribal Casino Gaming Enterprise is the licensed operator by the North Carolina State Lottery Commission. Know when to stop before you start. Gambling problem? Call 1-877-718-5543 or visit morethanagame.NC.gov.