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Dr. Laurie Watson [00:00:32]:
George today we really want to help people with their protective moves. Last week we talked about the defensive moves in the emotional and sexual cycle. And this week we’re going to talk about kind of what we do with this and maybe three parts to it, right? The healthy function of our protective moves and then the impact it has on ourselves and our partners. What do you think?

George Faller [00:00:54]:
Let’s do it.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:00:58]:
Welcome to Foreplay sex therapy. I’m Dr. Laurie Watson, your sex therapist.

George Faller [00:01:02]:
And I’m George Faller, your couples therapist.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:01:05]:
We are here to talk about sex.

George Faller [00:01:07]:
Our mission is to help couples talk about sex in ways that incorporate their body, their mind, and their hearts.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:01:15]:
And we have a little bit of fun doing it. Right, G?

George Faller [00:01:17]:
Listen, and let’s change some relationships.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:01:20]:
And to begin, we again, we want to thank our patrons who have helped us so much over the years. George and I are writing a book right now, so if you have the means and we have been helping you in your lives, we would love your support, especially in this new endeavor. It takes time and it’s taken money. We’re hiring an editor, and we’re so thankful for that. But we would love your support, and we thank you for your continued support.

George Faller [00:01:47]:
It’s a blessing and a curse, right? It’s because we’re having success and we’re kind of having these great ideas that we want to expand. It does take more and more time. So what I thought was this tiny little side project is turning into a bigger, bigger project. So, you know, we really do appreciate all your support and your kind of well wishes and prayers and financial kind of support for us because it really does make a difference. And, you know, hopefully we get to a point where we could even invest more and more of our time into this area because it’s so critically important.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:02:21]:
It is. And we also want to thank you for your letters. I mean, many times we get letters of people just saying how we’ve helped them and changed their lives. And those are great to get too, because George and I, we’re, like, in closets here, talking just to each other. It’s sometimes hard to see that we’re actually reaching people out there. So thank you very much. You write us as well. That’s another way to support us.

George Faller [00:02:46]:
It’s probably the most rewarding part of this process, to hear from people you’ll never meet, but to know that something you’ve said is kind of changing trajectory, and it’s so cool.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:02:57]:
That is cool. So today, I want us to start and think about the functions of our survival mechanisms that kind of are automated inside of us, where we want to think about the healthy function and the impact that it has on us and then the impact that that has on our partners. So, could you kind of give us an overview here, George, and orient us as we before we start the pursuing the withdraw section?

George Faller [00:03:25]:
Sounds good. I think it’s a great topic. I’m glad we’re doing a podcast on this, because my brain likes to think in images, so I can see, like, three growing circles. Right at the heart of this is what we focus so much on. What is the immediacy? What’s the healthy function of a fight or flight response when that yellow brain is threatened? Like, it’s our bodies trying to do something good for us. It’s not trying to mess things up. So if we get angry, that anger is saying, wait, you have a right, you have a voice, you have control, you have power. Like, it’s giving you a sense of agency.

George Faller [00:04:01]:
Or that flight response is like, wait a second, let me go away. It feels safer. I can kind of reset or control things. And we speak a lot about this in our podcasts, really trying to honor, connect. Everything we try to do is connect first, then stretch people, make them feel safer, then you can help them see a bigger picture. Right? So it all starts with that, right?

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:04:23]:
We’re trying to say your survival instinct doesn’t make you bad. I mean, just because you want to fight or if you want to go away, that doesn’t make you bad. We just want you to understand it, understand the good intention of it, and then be able to stretch and maybe change it so that we’re not just always acting in survival, but we have other options. We have new moves that we can do.

George Faller [00:04:47]:
Exactly. So once you connect and you create a little bit of safety, then that second circle is inviting people and say, okay, can you get a bit curious about the impact of this to you? So, if you’re gonna be angry and push and then immediacy, it makes you feel strong. Well, what else does it do to you? What’s the impact to you that makes you always have to be the angry person? What is it like to train your nervous system to always push, right? There’s some nasty stuff that we’re gonna get into in this podcast.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:05:18]:
Exactly.

George Faller [00:05:18]:
Or when you’re withdrawing, like, you know, you don’t know who you are emotionally, as sexually, when you keep running away from these places. So there’s a pretty nasty impact, right. That we were gonna spend really the heart of this podcast. And then once you can connect to that, that person is seeing more fully why they do what they do and some of the costs of what they do to themselves. And then that third and final ring is inviting them to see, all right, what do you think the impact of this move is on your partner? You really need safety to see that bigger picture. But that anger that you’re hoping to motivate actually probably does something very different, or that going away, which makes you feel safer, probably does something very different to your partner. So seeing the good intent and the impact.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:06:05]:
Right. We know that very frequently our protective move triggers our partner, which they do a protective move that triggers us, and then we’re in the cycle and we’re lost. But we want to slow this down, have you think about it, so that you can see what’s happening, and maybe then it will help you do something differently. So the healthy function of the pursuer, right. It is to get something across to their partner. They want change, they want to motivate their partner to do something. It is a push sometimes also for more connection, maybe more sex, more intimate time.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:06:47]:
Those things aren’t bad. But the way the pursuer comes across often is it’s not necessarily just initiating or seductive, it’s with criticism, it’s with anger,. That’s what makes the pursue part of the cycle dysfunctional.

George Faller [00:07:04]:
Right. So help us understand what the impact is to self when you’re constantly in this role of needing to be angry and needing to be critical, because so often pursuers don’t focus on themselves or see the impact, they’re focusing on their partner.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:07:21]:
Yeah, exactly. I think the impact on the self is that the pursuing part is really has a mindset of scarcity. It isn’t easily satisfied. No matter how much your partner comes towards you, your brain has been trained to keep pushing. And this is why, even for ourselves, we kind of feel dysregulated on the inside when we’re pursuing, We can’t take in the. The gift that our partner gives us, whether it’s sexual or emotional, because our brain says, no, no, no. If I give up pushing, then I won’t get enough in life of whatever it is I need. And I can observe this in myself, George.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:08:06]:
The clearer I get about these concepts, I know in me, it’s like a little rat on the wheel that kind of keeps spinning in my stomach, this feeling that, yeah, I’m pushing and I have to keep pushing, even when my partner responds to me. It’s like I have to keep going. I have to keep this thing inside. And so it leaves me uptight. It leaves me anxious because the pursuer part of me is automated. It is from my childhood. This is how I survived.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:08:42]:
So it feels smart to my body., but in adulthood, in relationships that start to become more functional, it’s actually hurtful to me.

George Faller [00:08:53]:
Yeah.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:08:54]:
Does that make sense?

George Faller [00:08:55]:
I appreciate you being curious about how this plays out in real time for you. And although you could honor the intent of that anxiety, you’re really just trying to help us see the cost of it to you that your baseline actually increases. Right? When you’re constantly pushing, you don’t how to not push when you’re training those neural pathways to just constantly want more and not feel satisfied because you might be missing something. And like, that keeps that rat running and running and running. And that’s pretty exhausting.

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Dr. Laurie Watson [00:10:01]:
Right. I love that you’re sort of tapping into that word, the exhaustion piece of being a pursuer, you know, because you do kind of get worn out of this belief, you know, that I have to do this or our relationship won’t work. Our sex life won’t be enough. You know, there won’t be enough time together. I have to keep pushing. And it leaves you a bit blind to the nuances of your partner’s delivery on the goods. You know, you can’t see it, and so. So you’re always hungry, even when things start to be better.

George Faller [00:10:39]:
Right? And that’s the piece of seeing impact is I’m really trying to get people take ownership for their move to say, hey, listen, I see what it does in the short term, that helps, but I need to take ownership of what it does to me. This sets me up to be exhausted. It gives me the illusion of control. But I’m constantly focusing on the future, the next thing, and I can’t be present. I don’t know how to let go. I can’t find peace and just be, because I’m constantly chasing what could be next. We know that’s how our brain works. The more neurons fire together, wire together, these things get easier and easier over time.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:11:18]:
I remember the moment in my marriage when I decided to stop pushing. I felt like it was the only way to get what I needed. But I also knew that it was destroying my marriage. And I felt like to stop. It was almost like I was stepping off a cliff backwards and there were jagged rocks underneath. I thought I would die, but I wasn’t sure that there wouldn’t be some rescue, some Superman that would come get me, some net. I knew for certain that the pushing was going to destroy things. I absolutely, in my gut, knew that.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:11:53]:
But the stepping off the cliff and letting go of that pushing push was so scary, I thought I would die, too. It was kind of like fear. But there was just a tiny possibility that stopping pushing might be better. And so I kind of let go.

George Faller [00:12:08]:
You trust pushing.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:12:10]:
I picked it up again a lot, too, but just.

George Faller [00:12:13]:
It’s an important distinction that you trust the pushing, right? You don’t trust not pushing. It’s such a novel, scary thing. You can’t talk people into it. They have to experience success in letting go. So if you jump off that cliff backwards and you find actually it was only two inches and it wasn’t so bad, your body starts to have another option, which really also then makes space for that last thing, which is you already talking about seeing the impact, your partner, hoping it’s going to motivate him. But actually what it does is it chips away. And really seeing the impact, I think is great motivation to come up with a new move, too.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:12:59]:
Yeah. Because for the love of your partner, you see that this hurts them. You may not know what else to do, but when you see how much it hurts them, that is motivating, too.

George Faller [00:13:13]:
Yeah. And the hurt is in the form of constant critiques and messages that they’re not doing enough or what they’re doing is wrong, and they could be doing more of it or better of it. I mean, we think it’s going to motivate them, right? That pushing energy, but it so discourages, it defeats and deflates.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:13:30]:
Yeah, that criticism is like death by a thousand cuts, you know?

George Faller [00:13:34]:
Exactly.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:13:36]:
Paper cuts.

George Faller [00:13:37]:
Exactly. All right, well, let’s come back and talk about the withdrawers. And if some of you don’t come back, we know why.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:13:50]:
Many of you reach out to me for couples counseling and personalized help. If you want to dramatically improve your intimacy in a short amount of time, I do offer privately scheduled couple counseling intensives. It’s like a private couples retreat. It’s 12 to 16 hours in Raleigh. Maybe you need to get through the emotional cycle where one of you is suffering, feeling rejected, or the other one is feeling abandoned. Or maybe you need a jolt to your sex life. Together we can work through this. We set goals.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:14:19]:
We dive deep into your dynamics, figure out your negative cycle. We work through the sexual and the emotional problems. And then we often have a dramatic breakthrough. So you can call my office or you can contact me at awakeningcenter.org.

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Dr. Laurie Watson [00:16:28]:
Okay, so the withdraw.

George Faller [00:16:32]:
I got some practice in this area, so that would be a good thing.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:16:35]:
Okay.

George Faller [00:16:36]:
You know, but again, we’re those three circles. We talk a lot about honoring the safety in not engaging, how it kind of tries to prevent escalation. It tries to get people to think more clearly. It’s heading towards self regulation because co regulation is failing. So there’s control in that space of self regulation. That’s all people are looking for, an immediacy of it. Right. But you just can’t leave it there because that second part where you got to see the impact to you.

George Faller [00:17:06]:
So it’s a withdrawal for me if when my wife is not happy and upset and criticizing me and I’m like, let me just go away so I can just kind of think about what I can do when I go away. I don’t think about the emotions. I don’t think about my feelings. I think about problem solving. Like, what could I have done differently? And there’s value in all of that. But with a lot of withdrawers, unfortunately, the impact is that they avoid themselves. They don’t, they don’t get curious. They don’t fight for these parts.

George Faller [00:17:38]:
They don’t want to understand their hurt or their fears. And there’s so much wisdom in that because not only is it telling us the problem, it tells us the solution if we listen to it, right. But if we don’t listen to it, the cost to the self is going to be massive avoidance, really not knowing who you are, losing parts of yourself over time, which is going to make the levels of engagement go down.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:18:03]:
Right. They keep calm, but they’re not really analyzing on the inside, you know, what this, what this, what they felt about it. And then I think especially, I noticed this in the crossover, right. When we have an emotional withdrawal and a sexual pursuer, the problem is they don’t have a lot of practice describing those feelings. So when they’re in the sexual cycle pursuing and their partner says, why are you doing this? What are you feeling? It’s like they don’t have language for it because they haven’t really analyzed it and thought about it. They’ve stayed away from those thoughts.

George Faller [00:18:42]:
Exactly. No, language is a hallmark of that avoidance strategy. And you see this a lot with the sexual withdrawers. Right before they roll over, they’re feeling something, but they think they’re rolling over. The intent is they can get away from that feeling, which helps, but they don’t recognize the cost of rolling over is that they’re also going to hide from their own kind of emotions. Right. In doing that, they’re going to lose their desire, they’re going to lose access. These things start to develop more and more blocks, more and more pressure.

George Faller [00:19:14]:
And if you’re not going to examine it, you can’t repair it. And these things start to suffocate. The erotic energy.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:19:22]:
Right. The impact on themselves. I just. When I listen to a sexual withdrawer say, you know, I just. I don’t need sex. I’m like, wow, you don’t need this thing that is so exciting and enlivening to your life. And then they’ll describe to me times that it was enlivening, you know, maybe in the beginning of their relationship. And I’m like, you’re willing to go without that for the rest of your life? You’re saying you don’t need that anymore.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:19:49]:
My heart just starts to break when I hear that. That’s the impact on the self.

George Faller [00:19:53]:
Yes.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:19:54]:
You know, that they are giving up a peace in life. They’re shutting it down as they withdraw. That would make life so much more fun, so much more exciting, thrilling, even.

George Faller [00:20:07]:
Yeah, let’s highlight that. That’s the cost of the defenses. The defenses are trying to reduce the negative, but they don’t realize the cost of the impact and reduce it in negative is the positives fall off the radar. You lose access to your longings, your dreams, your desires, all that good stuff. Which is why we’re in this damn thing in the first place. It gets harder and harder to access that. And most mature never realize the. That that’s the cost to them.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:20:34]:
Yep, exactly.

George Faller [00:20:35]:
That’s why I think this is so important.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:20:38]:
Maybe emotional withdrawers as well. They miss out on the connection that’s offered to them because they can’t let themselves sort of go there. You know, it’s too scary. For some reason, they’re afraid of that connection. And so not just sexual withdrawers, but emotional withdrawers too. They miss out on so much.

George Faller [00:21:02]:
Yeah. They settle for not making things worse and don’t realize they’re never going to make things better. With that strategy, The best you get is not so bad. You never get the really good. And that’s the opportunity. That is what we’re trying to get. These all you withdrawers listening, nobody’s helped. You put words to the cost of this strategy, which to yourself is pretty severe.

George Faller [00:21:29]:
And then if we expand to that last circle, really trying to get the costs, the impact of this move to your partner, right. Whose whole energy is trying to get your engagement, get you to listen, get you to motivate change. It’s trying to pull you in, and your move is going away. What does that do to the pursuer, Laurie?

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:21:48]:
It makes us crazy, I think, about, and this is maybe life stage issue, but, you know, the menopausal woman who’s struggling with her hormones and her dryness, and maybe their marriage has been disrupted for whatever reason. She’s like, I’m done. I’m tapping out. And the absolute frustration, rage, and pain that their partner feels like. What do you mean you’re done with sex? Like, how is that possible? We are pledged to each other in this sexual relationship. I really understand that rage, and I get that. I feel for that. And it isn’t just women who shut down in menopause.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:22:32]:
Men shut down as well because of ED and all kinds of issues.

George Faller [00:22:37]:
So you refuse to engage, which totally rejects the other person. It leaves the other person in an utterly helpless place where they can’t create any change, that the moves that they have. The whole point of it is to create change, and they can’t do it. So, yeah, it’s crazy making. It’s lonely. It leads to shame. I mean, it has a nasty impact.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:23:03]:
It does. It reminds me of being a child. When you want something and your partner says no because I said so. You know, it’s like, what? You know, there’s no logic. There’s no understanding. You’re just saying no. And, you know, we all understand that from a child’s perspective, how enraging that makes a kid.

George Faller [00:23:24]:
Yeah, it feels punitive. How could it not? When you’re not getting this thing that’s so healthy and normal and you’re not really even being told why there’s no words. You just left your own imagination and fill in the gaps.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:23:36]:
Yep, yep. No, you just won’t connect with me. Okay.

George Faller [00:23:42]:
Yeah. Tough spots. We’re doing this because when you can start making room for all of these three parts, right, the good intent, the impact to self and impact to others, it’s starting to give you a lot more to talk about. It’s starting to kind of recognize the costs of this kind of protection. Right. It’s like, to me, it’s like fast food. It, like, might feel good, that quick move to protect you, but in the long term, it’s gonna have some nasty costs that most people don’t actually get any help put in words to.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:24:16]:
Yeah, exactly.

George Faller [00:24:18]:
Or he’s laughing because I really like fast food. I haven’t learned this lesson yet. I haven’t met a fast food I don’t like.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:24:25]:
I am laughing at that. I’m laughing at pizza, which I love pizza, too.

George Faller [00:24:29]:
So pizza is not considered a fast food in my book. That’s considered a healthy. It’s frustrated are gonna be bad for you. So no one’s gonna talk me out of that one.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:24:41]:
Oh, my gosh.

George Faller [00:24:42]:
There’s a lot to be said for how your brain sees something, kind of how your body responds to it. So I’m going to keep tricking my. brain to tell me….

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:24:49]:
George…I am just being protective of your cholesterol because, you know, pizza raises cholesterol and high cholesterol stops erection. So I have your. I have your health at heart.

George Faller [00:24:58]:
I’m not eating pizza anymore. That’s it. I’m done with pizza. Just make somebody make a choice between two really important things and see what happens.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:25:07]:
Exactly. Exactly.

George Faller [00:25:08]:
You know what? I like pizza too much. I don’t know.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:25:11]:
Okay. I think as we talk about the frustration and the rage when the withdrawal cuts off and the impact on their partner, we’re trying to get the withdrawer to kind of see with illustrations what it’s like. That’s why I use the example of the child whose parents says, because I said so, that they can remember in their body what it’s like to be blocked. Because when we empathy for a similar situation is kind of the way we begin to see the impact on the other. Like when we go, oh, yeah, we know. That’s why a crisscross system, when one person is the emotional pursuer and the sexual withdrawer and vice versa, is easier to fix. Because we can have empathy. We know what it’s like to be blocked in one place.

George Faller [00:26:01]:
Yes. It is so important that empathy. Can you walk across the bridge into your partner’s world and walk in their shoes and experience what they experience? But to do that, you really need a lot of safety, and you got to focus on the mission. So many couples in conversations, they both want empathy at the same time, and neither one of them ever really wound up getting it right.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:26:24]:
And I think what you’re saying is sometimes right, when our survival brain is taking over, the mission is just for us to survive. We forget about that. The real mission is for our relationship to survive and to thrive.

George Faller [00:26:39]:
Yeah. You know, I mean, that’s why a yellow brain is not such a good partner. It’s really all about you and your survival. You don’t see the impact. You don’t see your partner’s perspective. You really got to make people feel safe so they can start seeing that bigger picture. That’s why we connect first and then we stretch people. We connect them because we want to pull that brain green and then in that space, they can cross over the bridge and really start to get what it does to their partner.

George Faller [00:27:06]:
And that’s beautiful motivation to change. Right? But if you try to push people too fast for that, they just can’t get there.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:27:14]:
One of the things you said to me that I appreciated is that many times in therapy, the pursuer is seen as bad because their anger and their criticism is so out in front. Whereas the withdrawal may be logical, maybe positive, seems so good. We’re not some therapists, not efT therapists, but some therapists are just struck by that protective move. They don’t see the healthy intent, the desire underneath it, what the survival mechanism is accomplishing for that person.

George Faller [00:27:50]:
Yeah. And again, for me, the heart of this episode is that second circle. The impact itself is often so missing in everyone. Right? They really take that time to say, and I love,Laurie, as you explore that with yourself and you let us into your process. Right. It’s like I start to see what this does to me in the long term.

George Faller [00:28:14]:
The costs of this energy of pushing or for me as a withdrawal, the course of chronically just trying to escape negativity, how that really causes me to not know myself and not have words. Right. You got to take ownership of that because that’s going to drive that motivation. It says, I got to stop doing. I got to stand up for myself. I want something to be different. Yeah. I want for my partner, too.

George Faller [00:28:37]:
But when you start to see how it’s hurting you, I think that’s also great motivation to change.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:28:45]:
I want my energy back or I want my excitement back in life. Both of those things. Yeah. Okay, well, thanks for listening.

George Faller [00:28:54]:
Keep it hot, y’all.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:28:55]:
Okay, so tell us about your cutting edge training that you’re doing on success and vulnerability, Laurie.

George Faller [00:29:02]:
We just keep pushing it. Coming up with a new module on the playbook of a pursuer, playbook of a withdrawer, really practical moment by moment moves of what a therapist can use. And we’re so focused on what’s happening in session enough. There’s talk about theories and these global things I think most therapists are looking for “What do I do in this moment? Give me a tool, George”. So that’s what we’re trying to do.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:29:27]:
That’s awesome. I am so glad you guys are doing this work. I think it helps us be organized to see you do it. You do demos, you do explanations, teaching. It really is interactive, and I think that so many trainings that we sit through don’t give us an opportunity for that. So what you’re doing is really important.

George Faller [00:29:46]:
No, we try to emphasize the teach it, show it, do it model of learning. You need to have some ideas, so we try to teach those, and then we try to show what it looks like implementing those ideas. But most importantly, you now got to practice it. That’s how they become yours, and that’s what we want our listeners and watchers to do, is become their own moves.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:30:05]:
Find George and his teaching at successandvulnerability.com.

George Faller [00:30:09]:
Call in your questions to the Foreplay question voicemail. Dial 833-MY-4PLAY. That’s 833, MY, the number4 Play, and we’ll use the questions for our mailbag episodes. All content is for entertainment purposes only and should not be considered as a substitute for therapy by a licensed clinician or as medical advice from a doctor. This podcast is copyrighted by Foreplay media.

Advertisement [00:30:31]:
My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big ROAS man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on Ad Spend. My friends still laugh at me to this day.

Announcer 2 [00:30:44]:
Not everyone gets B2B. But with LinkedIn youll be able to reach people who do. Get a $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com/results to claim your credit. Thats LinkedIn.com/results. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn – the place to B2B.