Transcript

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Joe Davis – Announcer [00:01:30]:
The following content is not suitable for children. Back to the school of love, Laurie. Today we’re going to talk about going deeper, listening to the ouch, getting into vulnerability.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:01:41]:
Okay, welcome to foreplay sex therapy. I’m Dr. Laurie Watson, your sex therapist.

George Faller [00:01:49]:
And I’m George Faller, your couples therapist.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:01:52]:
We are here to talk about sex.

George Faller [00:01:54]:
Our mission is to help couples talk about sex in ways that incorporate their body, their mind and their hearts.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:02:02]:
And we have a little bit of fun doing it. Right, G?

George Faller [00:02:04]:
Listen and let’s change some relationships. Yeah, this is so important. I mean, this is the essence of gathering the material you need for a positive cycle. There’s always an ouch underneath why people protect themselves, right? That fight or flight yellow brain response is because there’s a threat. There’s something tender and vulnerable underneath that. And there’s not a lot of space or safety in negative cycles to talk about it. So it never really gets talked about or gets talked about in anger and defensiveness.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:02:33]:
Yep.

George Faller [00:02:34]:
The goal of this step three is trying to get people to slow down and to see the value of listening to their own. Ouch. Their own fear or their own hurt. That becomes the mission. You can’t do both of them at the same time. You got to pick one of them and start really trying to get curious to what that vulnerability is.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:02:55]:
Right. So most of the time we focus on our partner and what they’re not doing. What they’re doing or what they’re not doing. And so, you know, what you’re really asking in step three is for the person to start to feel what’s underneath the pain for themselves and then begin to talk about it, which that’s like, oh, my gosh, George. It’s so hard to do that, right, because we’re already hurting. And then to offer up our vulnerability to the person who’s hurting us, it just feels like, are you kidding me? You know, it’s. It’s such a big task. I’m gonna tell you.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:03:33]:
I’m gonna tell you. You know how you make me feel? You know, like, what I feel, what gets triggered in me. I just.

George Faller [00:03:39]:
We have a saying in eft. No risking, no getting it is a big task. But what’s the alternative? To say nothing? If you say nothing, we know with a hundred degree certainty what you are going to do is you will protect yourself. Both people protect themselves. The more unsafe it is to ever really deal with what’s at the core of the problem, which is this. Ouch. It’s the solution. That’s the good news here.

George Faller [00:04:05]:
If you all listen and like, if you can go into psychic, if you can go deeper into yourself and listen to your own emotional signals, it’s going to tell you where you need to go. There’s a longing in every. Ouch. Right. There’s some important information here that most of us don’t grow up in families learning to talk about it and. And we’re not in relationships knowing how to talk about it. And it’s why we keep seeing these negative cycles get passed down generation to generation to generation.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:04:28]:
Right. We’re always clashing with our hard little shells against each other. And I think what we’re saying in this new step of accessing our own vulnerability and sharing that is that we’re going to connect underbelly to underbelly.

George Faller [00:04:44]:
Yeah. And you have to have some safety to do this. I mean, if you’re really caught up in defenses, you need to work with that first. A lot of times there go too quick to try to go to vulnerability and it’s not safe. So I really want my couples to know why we’re doing this. The timing has to be right. They have to be agreeing on the mission. Even when everything’s perfect, it’s still hard to do, like you said.

George Faller [00:05:06]:
But this is really easy to miss each other in these places.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:05:10]:
It is. And how. What are the markers that I would know if I wasn’t in therapy? That it would be the right time to tell my partner about my vulnerable and underbelly. The things I feel, the things that I fear, what’s going on deeply inside me. How do I know that?

George Faller [00:05:29]:
I think there has to be already some recognition of a cycle of how the good reason to say, for example, you’re the pursuer and you’re being critical because you want to push for change. And the good reason I’m going away because that’s what I do to feel safe. It’s like when we both get why we protect ourselves and we start to see the bigger picture, that that creates a feedback loop where we both lose. It creates some motivation for both people to say, all right, we want to do it differently and we want to understand, and this is how you do it differently. But the main thing is if you start to talk about your pain underneath your defenses and I try to talk about my pain at the same time, we’re going to do the same thing and miss each other. So you really do got to agree who’s going to go first in this moment, the other person’s going to get their chance. But if you’re going to share, I really want the partner witnessing to just try to keep their heart open, to just walk in the other person’s shoes, see the world the way they see it, you know, try to help them not be alone in these places.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:06:24]:
So two things I hear that couples should sort of measure about when it’s time for this is first, as a couple, they need to see that they are in a cycle and kind of have a feel for how it goes. Like, I chase you, I pursue you, I get a little critical. That shuts you down. The more shut down you are, the more anxious I feel. And then I push you and then a little bit further, and then you feel fearful and all that rejection, and so you pull away. So they have to be able to kind of see that their problems are cyclical and dynamic. And then this other piece that they have to have the ability to be patient while their partner kind of gets stuff out. And I think a lot of people are fearful.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:07:08]:
Like, if I give you that time and space I’m not going to have my time and space to tell you my side of it. So I start talking about my pain, and maybe my partner says, well, I have pain, too, and let me tell you about that. And then it’s off to the races. There’s no space to do this. And so what? There’s like two places. One, you have to know that you are in a cycle. And two, you have to be able to be kind of mature enough and willing enough to let your partner have quite a bit of space to talk about what they feel and be able to, like, I don’t know, sort of look at it a little bit objectively. Like, gosh, if I were feeling all those things and if I were in your shoes, that would be really hard.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:07:54]:
So you have to have that third eye that says, okay, yeah, I may be the cause of all your pain, but I love you and I care about you and I, you know, I’m gonna be willing to be empathic with you in your moment.

George Faller [00:08:08]:
That’s the key. That ability, if you’re the witness and partner, to start off, you have to be curious. You have to want to get to know your partner. The focus has to be on your partner, not you. You need to be in that empathetic place, and we all get triggered. I mean, if you start to cry and your tears trigger me, it’s my fault. It’s really hard for me to stay open. I get defensive, and that’s just part of the work, working with that shift towards defensiveness.

George Faller [00:08:35]:
So we just want to honor that. You could want to do this, be curious, and you could start off being curious. And as soon as your partner starts to share, it triggers some of your defenses. But to be aware of that, to be able to say, hey, I’m just getting defensive. Like, that’s, that’s empowerment, because normally these things happen so quick, people won’t even realize they’re doing it.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:08:54]:
Okay, so give us a quick overview of, of what we’re going to do here, because then I’d love for us to roleplay it.

George Faller [00:09:00]:
Awesome. That recognizing what we call secondary emotion or reactive emotion, that’s the defensive piece that you see, the anger, the walking away, that primary core emotion is that vulnerability underneath the sense that we’re failing, we feel sad, we feel lonely, we feel helpless, we feel rejected, we feel abandoned. And then in that place, because we’re alone and we’re hurting, we’re scared. We usually have negative views of self, right? I deserve rejection, I’m unlovable, I’m broken.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:09:30]:
I’m too much.

George Faller [00:09:31]:
That’s the place that is the target. Trying to get people to put words to the emotion, the core emotion, the fear and the negative view of self that comes alongside that. That’s all this vulnerable, tender place that there tends to be not a lot of safety to talk about.

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Dr. Laurie Watson [00:11:17]:
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Dr. Laurie Watson [00:11:56]:
Oh, it’s such a tall order, though.

George Faller [00:11:57]:
You don’t look quiet. We could be pursuing what we do.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:12:00]:
I do. I’ll be the pursuer. My husband and I. Actually, I’m going to have you heal me here, G. My husband and I, as we watch our children start to parent, some of what has come up for me is my own pain during those early years as a young mother, and I’ve been trying to talk to my husband about it. So I’ll do it the bad way first, and then you can leave me. Why don’t you pretend to be my partner and deal with my secondary emotion and get curious so that I can express the more core emotions?

George Faller [00:12:34]:
Okay. So, Laurie, I, again, I. I appreciate more now that the good reasons you have been frustrated and critical through the years. It’s not just you want to pick on me, but things weren’t working, and you want to bring attention to that. Things didn’t feel fair, and you wanted to protest that. You wanted some kind of change. You noticed things could be better, and your heart wanted that, and that’s what that energy was trying to push for. I didn’t feel good on the other end of it, but I get what you were trying to do with that.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:13:10]:
Yeah. Yeah. I think that, you know, I was so frustrated that, you know, I couldn’t quite get you to engage and to feel the weight of what I felt with the children. You know, it’s like. And I. And it was just. It was so frustrating. It was like you’d kind of go off and do your independent thing.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:13:38]:
And it wasn’t that I didn’t want to have independence. I wanted to be right where I was as a mother. But I also wanted you to somehow or another get it. Like, this was everything. These were our children, and it just seemed like that was burdensome.

George Faller [00:13:56]:
Help me get it now? I want to understand that weight. What is it like for you underneath that frustration? When I wasn’t around, I was.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:14:05]:
I felt very alone in doing that. You know, I. I didn’t have female relatives around that I. That were helping. I didn’t have female relatives that I wanted to have help me or that I could call on, you know, so there wasn’t, like, this model. I had expected to leave work and come home to a group of girlfriends, and it turns out my girlfriends had children that were slightly older, so they were involved in other things, soccer and taking their kids to lessons. And I was with an infant, and so I literally didn’t have a community, and I needed you so much.

George Faller [00:14:47]:
I guess that’s what I’m starting to get clearer about, is I was doing what I thought I needed to do and provide and get out there. I imagine if you really needed me and you were alone, and I wasn’t around. You kind of got the sense that I didn’t want to be around you. Felt, like, rejected by me when I would go away.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:15:07]:
Yeah, I did. I felt rejected and kind of scared. It’s like, I think I needed you to shore me up. You know, I didn’t know how to do this thing. It was such a fearsome task in front of me, and, you know, I didn’t have internal models. I didn’t. So it was like I. You know, I was wanting to lean on you.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:15:31]:
I wanted you to maybe say I was doing it right, you know? Or I was. I was a good mother, you know, I was like. I just. I couldn’t get ahold of that. It was like I was always on shifting sand and so anxious and so scared.

George Faller [00:15:46]:
Yeah. I’m sorry I wasn’t there for you. Right. But I appreciate now, knowing how kind of deep this went that you kind of doubted yourself. Not only were you feeling rejected by me, but this is where you need shoring up, and you didn’t get it. So how was that for you to just not get the reassurance you needed?

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:16:09]:
It was hard, but it’s like, I love. I can. I can hear the softness now in you, and I know you really did shift. You really did change. You got on board with our kids so hard, and it was so great later, you know, you were such a good dad. And I guess it feels. I feel like you’re seeing me, and, I mean, I feel tender to that, even right now as we talk about it. Just tearful.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:16:39]:
Thank you.

George Faller [00:16:42]:
You’re welcome.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:16:45]:
Nice.

George Faller [00:16:45]:
All right, let’s come back and process.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:16:48]:
I feel healed. Thank you.

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Dr. Laurie Watson [00:19:27]:
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George Faller [00:20:16]:
All right, Laurie, how was that for you?

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:20:18]:
You know that as an emotional pursuer. Like, I tried to kind of do the thing that you would normally do with your secondary emotions and maybe be a little more blamey. And I think there was the reason I could go deeper into my fear, and all of that was real, for sure, you know, was really your softness that you kept focusing on me. You didn’t get defensive. You didn’t tell me your side of it. You gave me all that space, you know, to go into this place of vulnerability underneath. And for me to even say it and think about it. And I think one of the things, as I was talking about it, it became more articulate to me.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:21:03]:
You know, I knew me better and what was going on with me. And then, you know, you being able to say, yeah, I wasn’t there. It wasn’t like I needed to just say, oh, but I wish I had been, or I wanted you to. I wish I could go back and do it again. It was like just the acknowledgement that you weren’t there, but your kindness at looking at me and being with me, you know, even in a role play, George is so crazy, but it feels healing. Even though it wasn’t you, you know, it’s like just pretending that you were my husband, it’s like it feels better.

George Faller [00:21:39]:
The imagination’s a powerful thing. The body.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:21:41]:
Yeah, the imagination impacts our body. Right.

George Faller [00:21:44]:
Absolutely. And just to highlight Laurie. And that’s pretty predictable of most pursuers, like, when you find yourself alone, when you don’t want to be alone, you got to make sense of that. What is it about me that I need reassurance and I’m not getting it? And I keep trying to get it, and I continue not to get it. I mean, it’s not just lonely, but there’s rejection, there’s pain, and then there’s all this anxiety that questions. I mean, there are only two ways of making sense of rejection. My partner sucks. That’s what the anger does or I suck.

George Faller [00:22:18]:
Right. And that’s the stuff that there’s not to talk about because your partner’s not really around. So that vulnerability, Laurie, did a great job of demonstrating just. It’s not looking for to blame. It’s really just looking to be known. It’s looking to be seen. It’s looking to be validated, to just say, I’m not crazy, that I felt this way. Right.

George Faller [00:22:37]:
So if the witness and partner can just be present and stay open and just get to know this other person, they can be such bonding moments for couples.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:22:47]:
Exactly, exactly. Well, shall we try this? In the sexual cycle, maybe I could be the sexual withdrawer and you could be the sexual pursuer who needs to tell me a little bit about it.

George Faller [00:23:01]:
Okay.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:23:03]:
Okay. What do you want the issue to be?

George Faller [00:23:06]:
Just the lack of sex.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:23:11]:
Okay. I mean, that’s so, you know, ubiquitous. Right. That’s what we’re always working with tons and tons of sexual pursuers who. It’s like, it’s, the main thing is there’s not enough. Not enough sex.

George Faller [00:23:26]:
And what does that represent? What’s the ouch underneath that? That’s the key that doesn’t get talked about.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:23:32]:
Right.

George Faller [00:23:33]:
That’s the goal of what we’re trying to do here. I hope everyone listening is saying there’s always an ouch underneath the protection. We see the pursuer’s anger and criticism. Sexually, you don’t want sex. You have low libido. But there’s something on the inside that’s often not talked about. And that’s the key information we need for a positive cycle, for bonding moments. Is that vulnerability? The vulnerability pulls the partner closer.

George Faller [00:23:56]:
And when you’re not alone in vulnerability, your body experiences it so different than when you are alone in it.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:24:02]:
Exactly. Exactly. Okay.

George Faller [00:24:06]:
All right. So you’re gonna be my open partner.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:24:09]:
I’m gonna be your open partner who’s.

George Faller [00:24:11]:
Trying to explore me.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:24:14]:
Okay. But I’m gonna, I’m gonna pretend we’re pretending we’re a couple. Okay. So, so, Joey, I know we’ve had so many conversations this. And I really do know it’s been a frustrating area, you know, that our sexual life has not probably been everything you’ve wanted. I’m just wondering how you’re feeling about it.

George Faller [00:24:37]:
No, I think you’re starting to get the frustration and, I mean, the pressure you feel gets you causes you to disengage. And then I’m left, you know, holding a bag and I, you can’t even talk about it. And it’s. Yeah, it’s really frustrating. And, you know, I think we’re getting more clearly the cycle we fall into. Like, I don’t want to pressure you. I know the anger doesn’t work, but it’s, it’s just so hard when I find myself continuously back in this place.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:25:08]:
Yeah. Yeah, I know. And I certainly, I do sometimes feel pressured. And I know that you are kind of left with. You said hold in the bag. And I think you’ve been left with a lot of responsibility in our life to bring up sex to drive the sexual attachment and connection and, you know, and in good times, I can appreciate that. And in difficult times, you know, we get in it. But you said.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:25:37]:
I guess I was wondering if you would tell me. Holding the bag like you’re over there holding the bag. And I. You know, of all, I guess, all this responsibility and what does it feel like to you when you’re holding the bag and I’m not open to you?

George Faller [00:25:54]:
I mean, I think it’s easier because it feels unfair to just focus on you and kind of what you could be doing differently to change that. But I see my work as, like, really wanting to know what I’m like, to not have to kind of leave myself all the time, which is what I do, and I focus on you. Right. And I guess, what? I’m holding a bag, I just. I feel. I feel lonely. I feel like I want something healthy and good and you don’t want it the way I want it, so it just feels like, I guess, rejection and you just. I get confused in that place, but it feels like I want it more than you want it.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:26:42]:
Yeah, I want it. You want it more than I want it. And certainly that’s gonna be frustrating. And I guess you’re saying, if I would just change. Sometimes you think about it, if I could just change and wanted as much as you, things would be better. But then when that doesn’t happen, when you’re holding the bag, it’s like you’re actually feeling pretty rejected and alone. And you want something that is beautiful between us, to be connected in our bodies in this way. And that must really suck to feel frustrated and to feel rejected by me over and over.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:27:22]:
Because this has been a long pattern between us.

George Faller [00:27:26]:
There’s a lot of helplessness because I just don’t know what I’m supposed to do differently.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:27:30]:
And I feel like there is in.

George Faller [00:27:32]:
My life, I know what I’m supposed to do. And yet here, I don’t really know what to do. I just. That’s where it could start. Feeling hopeless at times, too. It’s like, what if we never get out of this place? You know? Then I. To be honest, I start to think maybe I’m gonna feel like I’m losing my confidence over time. Like maybe I’m not that great of a lover anymore or maybe you’re not attracted to me or, you know, this.

George Faller [00:27:58]:
Maybe I’m too much. I mean, I guess I play some. Some bad tapes in my own head in this place.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:28:05]:
Yeah. It’s pretty wicked stuff going on inside you when, you know, when you get to that powerless place and you’ve said that, you know, honey, I’ve tried everything. I don’t know what to do next. And I guess then you’re like, it must be about me that. And I can see how you would get that from me when I just don’t respond over time like you’re making it up, that it’s about you, that you’re not attractive, you’re not good enough in bed. And I can absolutely see how you get that message from me. This bad juju. Honey.

George Faller [00:28:44]:
Yeah, I guess that’s my fear at the worst. That maybe I deserve to be left alone because I’m just too much or sex crazed or, like, I don’t know, there’s something. I feel just bad about myself in this place.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:29:00]:
Yeah. That you’re gonna. Yeah. Sex fiend. I understand that. It’s like the need will never be met. And somehow or another, the need is wrong.

George Faller [00:29:13]:
Yeah.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:29:14]:
Yeah, I guess that’s. Yeah, I said that.

George Faller [00:29:19]:
But it feels like maybe I need too much, or the need is wrong, I’m bad. Or that’s, like, the worst part of it for me.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:29:28]:
It’s a pretty dark place. I’m so glad you’re telling me this part of you, because I. You know, when we’re in it, when we’re in the cycle. I don’t even know about this place. I don’t think I’ve heard you share about how bad it gets for you, how low it gets for you, you know, rejected and lonely and that you’re not enough and you’re. You’re just bad yourself. That’s.

George Faller [00:29:59]:
I mean, it feels bad to talk about it, but I can feel a relief that something about just naming it and saying it, it’s like all these years of not saying it makes it bigger than it is. Like, I appreciate you. Just. I don’t know. I guess I just feel some release. If you can. You’re getting it. I’m, like, understanding me here.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:30:19]:
I want to. I know. Because it, you know, this. This part that, you know, both of us have bad places, but, you know, that kind of fuels our cycle. I feel like I. If this is what’s beneath it and driving it for you, I understand how you want to get away from it because it can’t be pretty great to stay in, that you’re too much and you’re not good enough and you’re not a good lover. I mean, you know, it’s like everything that could have been good gets warped into somehow or another. You’re bad.

George Faller [00:31:00]:
Yeah.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:31:01]:
Yeah. Thank you for showing me that.

George Faller [00:31:06]:
Thank you.

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George Faller [00:32:08]:
All right.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:32:09]:
Okay.

George Faller [00:32:09]:
So you could see.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:32:11]:
I just want to say some thoughts as I’ve heard George say this or heard Joey say this, like, the deeper he goes, like, the more I feel pulled into it because he’s not blaming me anymore. He kind of starts out by saying something that is the old song and dance between us, but then as I stay patient, and each time it seems like he steps back further and further into the no good, bad, dark, ugly place that he lives in with it, and I feel my heart, like, pulled in. It’s like we’re going down this bad tunnel together, but we’re together. And so it’s very compelling when he talks like this, especially when I am pretending to be a sexual withdrawer who’s caused all this. Right. We’re no longer talking about the cycle. Yeah, the cycle caused it.

George Faller [00:33:08]:
No, I can feel. I mean, you’re 100% right. This is what people don’t understand. We really need this space to become clearer. There’s layers to this. Right. And if I start talking a little bit and you say, yeah, but what about me? Like, we can never get to those layers. We really need this space to allow the vulnerability to emerge, which is why couples really got to be focused on what’s the mission, who’s the person sharing.

George Faller [00:33:33]:
Right. I can feel myself as we went deeper, just getting clearer, like, talking more about me and less about you, that shifts from view of other or you to view of self and I. Right. That that’s where the vulnerability lies. That’s the conversation. You see negative cycles. There’s a lot of you and finger pointing, right? You see positive, vulnerable cycles. There’s a lot of sharing of I.

George Faller [00:33:56]:
And just this tender spot that you’re right pulls the partner closer. So we just started the process of just helping people recognize there’s always an ouch underneath, protective moves. And almost always, it’s not talked about exactly.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:34:13]:
I appreciate both role plays. Thank you, G. That was, I think, for me, insightful to see both personally, how it feels to be met in that dark place, and then how compelling it feels to meet someone in their darker place and how connecting it feels. So thank you all for listening to us.

George Faller [00:34:37]:
And withdrawers, we didn’t forget about you. You’re coming up next. Keep it hot, baby.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:34:42]:
Okay, so tell us about your cutting edge training that you’re doing on success and vulnerability.

George Faller [00:34:48]:
Laurie, we just keep pushing it. Coming up with a new module on the playbook of a pursuer, playbook of a witcher, really practical, moment by moment moves of what a therapist can use. And we’re so focused on what’s happening in session enough. There’s talk about theories and these global things I think most therapists are looking for. What do I do in this moment? Give me a tool, George. So that’s what we’re trying to do.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:35:14]:
That’s awesome. I am so glad you guys are doing this work. I think it helps us be organized to see you do it. You do demos, explanations, teaching. It really is interactive, and I think that so many trainings that we sit through don’t give us an opportunity for that. So what you’re doing is really important.

George Faller [00:35:34]:
No, we try to emphasize the teach it, show it, do it model of learning. You need to have some ideas. So we try to teach those, and then we try to show what it looks like implementing those ideas. But most importantly, you now got to practice it. That’s how they become yours. And that’s what we want our listeners and watchers to do is become their own moves.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:35:52]:
Find George and his [email protected] call in.

Joe Davis – Announcer [00:35:57]:
Your questions to the foreplay question voicemail. Dial 833-My4play. That’s eight three three my the number four play. And we’ll use the questions for our mailbag episodes. All content is for entertainment purposes only and should not be considered as a substitute for therapy by a licensed clinician or as medical advice from a doctor. This podcast is copyrighted by foreplay media.

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