Transcript

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This is Kristen Bell and Adam Brody and were dating in our new show. “Nobody wants this”, Right?

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Right.

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We’re not really dating. No.

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In real life, we’re married. Right?

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Married to other people, not each other.

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Ugh.

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This is complicated.

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Right?

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It’s just like our love lives in “Nobody wants this”. A show about what happens when a bold and sometimes provocative podcast host finds her unlikely match in a sweet, traditional rabbi. You can watch every episode of nobody wants this now only on Netflix.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:00:45]:
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Because if you send most underrated summer activity, they send eating spicy soup in front of the air conditioner on full blast. And that’s something you can work with. You’re still making the first move, but you can choose a question or write your own to get sent to all your matches so you can relax and see what they come back with. Download bumble and try it for yourself. The following content is not suitable for children.

George Faller [00:01:25]:
Uniting against the sexual cycle. Let’s kick its ass, Laurie.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:01:34]:
Let’s do it. Welcome to Foreplay sex therapy. I’m Dr. Laurie Watson, your sex therapist.

George Faller [00:01:42]:
And I’m George Faller, your couples therapist.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:01:45]:
We are here to talk about sex.

George Faller [00:01:47]:
Our mission is to help couples talk about sex in ways that incorporate their body, their mind, and their hearts.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:01:55]:
And we have a little bit of fun doing it. Right, G?

George Faller [00:01:56]:
Listen, and let’s change some relationships.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:02:00]:
George. We’re talking about when couples reach a point where they can talk to each other and they can describe to each other what happens in their cycle. And we just, last episode, we talked about it in the emotional cycle, and this time, what I really want to do is talk about it in the sexual cycle. How do we name our places, our moves, our protections, and see what it does to our partner? Imagine what it does to our partner and then have a conversation about it. And we know that when couples reach that point in their sexual relationship where they can see kind of how they are protecting themselves and how it lands on their partner that they’re in a place that they’re ready to actually move forward and to resolve things. And so when they’re, they have the language, when they have the emotional sort of wherewithal to tell each other these things, they’re good to go, they’re good to change. That’s the beginning of change right there. One of the questions I always ask my people to check, you know, like where are they at in their work together, is I’m always asking them, do you see how what you just told me might have, might impact your partner? And if the person can say, oh yeah, yeah, I know, because it triggers them in this way, it’s like I really feel hopeful.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:03:24]:
So knowing how we trigger our partner is where we’re going to go today and we’re going to talk about it sexually.

George Faller [00:03:31]:
Exactly. You always know that moment in session when you’re explaining a cycle and you get both clients heads nodding, right. They’re starting to see the bigger picture. They’re starting to shift out of that framework that just blames the other person for what’s happening and they start to see, wait a second, we are caught up in a feedback loop. We are caught up in this bigger dance than just what my little defended brain sees as the problem. And that shift towards externalizing the problem. It’s the cycle’s fault. It’s what we do in protecting ourselves that causes this, that’s really that big first step.

George Faller [00:04:07]:
We talked a lot about that in the emotional cycle. Let’s get into it in a sexual cycle.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:04:12]:
Okay? So imagining, you know, in many couples, you know, sex is a kind of a fragile area. We are so intimate there with our bodies and our emotions and our needs for touch and needs for orgasm. It’s just, it’s a place that kind of gets crushed, you know, very early on in a relationship. That’s why about, what is it? 20% of all couples become sexless by year two? Because the cycle comes for them. There’s the emotional cycle that’s happening then in their sexual life, it’s happening. And it’s not necessarily even related to intrinsic desire. It’s these moves that they’re making that kind of kill them.

George Faller [00:05:01]:
Right. And it’s almost easy in the emotional cycle to talk about it because it gets triggered so many times during a day. But most of us grow up in families not talking about sex. So we really don’t know how to name this thing. And it’s running the show in the bedroom and outside the bedroom. But most couples, so that this ability to talk about the sexual cycle you fall into for a lot of couples is the first time they can start having success in a sexual conversation, and we need success to do this differently. And I always love when Laurie and I roleplay this because Lori gets to be put in the role of the sexual withdrawal. Right? So Janae is the sexual withdrawer, and I’m Joey, the sexual pursuer.

George Faller [00:05:40]:
So it’s always fun to stretch ourselves and play different roles. Right, Laurie?

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:05:43]:
Always so much fun. Yeah. And I think it is, and it does actually help. Anytime we’re role playing or thinking about it from a perspective where we don’t live, it is actually helpful to see. And certainly my whole career started out with dealing with women who were sexual withdrawers. They would call me and they would say, I never want to have sex again. And it was like, ah, that would just feel like such a door slam. But I learned over time to relax when they would say that and.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:06:16]:
And listen really carefully because it meant so many things, and much of the time it meant I’m protecting myself in a cycle. It didn’t mean I don’t ever want sex, or sex is lousy, or sex is, you know, or I don’t like sex. It didn’t mean those things, but I just had to kind of make my own body relax as I listen to them. And that’s, of course, what a partner needs to do when their partner is saying, I don’t want to have sex. It’s like, that’s so scary. That’s so frightening.

George Faller [00:06:44]:
And that really is a couple starting to get a cycle when you can get both perspectives. Like, as a sexual pursuer, I got to know what it’s like for a sexual withdrawer. That’s really the spirit of getting a cycle. You get the good reasons both people are losing in this dynamics that they’re co creating.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:07:02]:
Right, right.

George Faller [00:07:03]:
All right, so let’s do it. I’m Joey.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:07:05]:
Okay.

George Faller [00:07:05]:
I’m the sexual priscilla.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:07:07]:
You’re okay.

George Faller [00:07:08]:
Janae, the sexual withdrawal. As Joey, I’m probably going to be the one bringing it up.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:07:13]:
Yeah, so.

George Faller [00:07:16]:
So, Janae, I guess even as I’m trying to bring up this topic, I want to talk about sex. I could feel, like, the pressure that I have that, you know, this must suck for you. Here it comes, a message. You’re doing something wrong. And it’s like, it’s amazing how easy it is for me to want to tell you you’re doing something wrong. Like, I never really got what that might do to you. I only just was, like, so motivated that I finally can get you to listen or change. Like, I had no idea the impact of what that might be doing to you, especially chronically, over time.

George Faller [00:07:55]:
So I guess that’s where I’m starting. Like, damn, I don’t even know how to bring this up in a way that doesn’t sound critical. How could you ever want to have these conversations if that’s the starting point for me?

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:08:07]:
I get it. You know, you do bring it up a lot, and. Yeah, inside me, gosh, a lot of the times, I think, oh, I would like to talk about absolutely anything with you any day of the week except this. And I get really anxious. I mean, I I get super anxious. And I know most of the time, I just. I’m such a talker with you, but I just, like, don’t want to talk about it, and I kind of get distracted. I remember all the things I got to do for the day or, you know.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:08:43]:
Or sometimes I know I get mad at you just to make you not want to break it up, I guess. But I know that that’s not good, because I know. I know we do got to talk about it, and I know that I have a part here. And I guess I. What I’ve been learning is that when I go away, it kind of leaves you pretty frantic and. And desperate to get through to me because I know how important it is, how important sex is to you.

George Faller [00:09:12]:
Well, thank you. And I love that we named it the dud. Right? It’s just like, it’s. We both just, like, it just sucks, you know, I get. You don’t want to have sex if you got all this pressure on you, and you get how frustrating it is when you want to have sex and your partner doesn’t seem to want to have sex. And instead of blaming each other, I think we’re finally starting to get how we’re just both losing. It’s the dud’s fault. It’s just what it’s done to us.

George Faller [00:09:41]:
It’s not your fault. I’m sorry for all the years, just seeing the problem as you and not seeing the bigger picture.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:09:48]:
That feels nice that you just said that, you know, because I think what we are learning is I’m not very responsive to you, but I am responding to pressure. And when I respond to pressure, you know, the only thing I want to do is depressurize, which is to go to bed early or tell you now or, you know, to. I don’t know, just try to get away from that, and you know, it’s like I don’t even bother anymore to think about what my body wants or what I might think about. It’s like I’m just responding to the pressure, and I’m sure that it feels like I don’t want you and I don’t want sex. And I don’t even know, honey, if I want sex, you know, because I’m just always feeling this, you know, gotta have sex, gotta have sex, gotta have sex. And I don’t know, like, remember when we had infertility and it was like, I wanted to have that baby, and I just kept pressuring you, and you were like, oh, enough already. I think it’s like that. It’s like, you know, we can get triggered by pressure, and that’s what happens for me.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:11:05]:
But I know it’s not good for you, and we can’t solve it that way. We cannot solve our problems if I just go away. And I think the worst thing is, what I’ve come to realize is you’re left with the whole burden of our sex life and making it good and somehow or another, being the seductive one, always setting up the date, always figuring it out. It’s a lot of pressure for you, too.

George Faller [00:11:34]:
Yeah. It’s just so helpful to, to not blame each other. It’s not your fault, you know, you have that pressure. It’s not my fault I get frustrated. It’s just what was has been created between us without us thinking. And, you know, I do feel hopeful, like, you know, even when I say the dud, it’s like, I know it’s a dud for both of us. It just feels like we’re both losing, and it’s, it’s, it feels good to not be just in it alone, to think it’s, like, all your fault. And then you say, no, it’s all my fault that there’s something bigger.

George Faller [00:12:04]:
And I can just feel myself feeling.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:12:06]:
Much calmer about that, and I appreciate that. It’s like I don’t feel any anger from you right now. It feels so much better than some of our old conversations, you know, like, I do kind of feel like we can figure this out together when we’re not angry at each other. And I don’t feel anxious, frankly, right now, talking to you, my stomach is fine. I’m not all uptight, and so it feels a lot better.

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George Faller [00:15:04]:
All right, let’s stop it here. You can see how both Joey and Janae are having success in a sexual conversation when you could work together to externalize and blame the cycle. And it’s not either person’s fault. Both people feel seen, they both feel understood. They both feel like their partner has their back.

George Faller [00:15:38]:
I mean, what a different outcome that is, typically, than most of the fights or the failure to repair in these sexual conversations.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:15:45]:
Yeah. And I see them giving each other success. You know, you talk about that a lot, your success and vulnerability training that you do. But it’s here each person is kind of crediting the other one. Like, I see you trying. It feels different right now. You are different. That’s the way each of them is giving the other one success.

George Faller [00:16:11]:
Yeah. I could feel my own. Even when I use the word dud, it’s like, you know, when you can name something, it’s like you can really put it outside the two of you. Right. It becomes this entity we were talking about that last time. It’s like this force, the demon force, this bad force that’s just trying to take you apart and take down your relationship. And when you start to blame that the other person’s got your back, like, you link arms and you’re like, let’s fight together. Like, let’s stop losing.

George Faller [00:16:38]:
Let’s fight against this bad thing. Well, let’s fight for a stronger relationship, for better sex, for love, for our family. Right. That’s basically what uniting against all four is trying to get couples to do.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:16:51]:
Yeah, exactly. And I like it. The dud. The dud. Because sex. Sex, when it’s even if. Right. Even if the pursuer wins and gets sex, they don’t get what they really want, which isn’t a partner who actively wants to participate.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:17:10]:
You know, it’s. It’s such a dud. And if you are the withdrawer, you know, saying, sure, let’s do it. It’s gotta be a dud. Sex is a dud because you don’t have that joy and spice and all that. So it’s a good, good, destructive descriptive.

George Faller [00:17:26]:
At least you think, at least I’m making my partner happy. And then your partner’s not happy anyway. Afterwards, it’s like, yeah, what the hell did I do that for? Again?

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:17:33]:
You can just see out loud.

George Faller [00:17:36]:
Yep. Old people lose over and over. Let’s come back and talk about our examples with that.

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Dr. Laurie Watson [00:18:56]:
Many of you reach out to me for couples counseling and personalized help if you want to dramatically improve your intimacy in a short amount of time. I do offer privately scheduled couple counseling intensives. It’s like a private couples retreat. It’s twelve to 16 hours in Raleigh. Maybe you need to get through the emotional cycle where one of you is suffering, feeling rejected, or the other one is feeling abandoned. Or maybe you need a jolt to your sex life. Together we can work through this. We set goals. We dive deep into your dynamics, figure out your negative cycle.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:19:22]:
We work through the sexual and the emotional problems, and then we often have a dramatic breakthrough. So you can call my office or you can contact [email protected].

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:20:19]:
So, G. I just want to talk about kind of what I have gone through. So I’m not the sexual withdrawer in my relationship. I am the sexual pursuer. And you know, I’ve said this before, but I think when it’s not stereotypical as a female being the sexual pursuer, in my work, I see maybe 25% of the couples as the female being the sexual pursuer. I know you haven’t seen that as much in your work, but I have. And I also have run with girlfriends who were sexual pursuers. And it seems like every girlfriend I’ve got is all about sex and maybe we just all come together. Yeah, they come together, self selecting group. But, and I’ve had a lot of fun with girlfriends over the years talking about sex. It’s been a wonderful thing. But yeah, I think that, you know, what was so painful was, first of all, it did kind of switch early in my relationship when we were, you know, before we got married, I did feel my partner’s energy for me and all that desire. And then almost as soon as we got married, there was a big switch. Like, you know, he didn’t seem to want to do it. And the bait and switch, it was the bait and switch. And.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:20:55]:
And, you know, we had waited to have sex. We were very religious. And so for me, there was this heightened. This is the moment, you know, now it’s like, it’s total freedom. We get to do it. And I was so excited, and it was really mysterious to me that he didn’t want to. And I kind of was thinking we would have sex every night, because mostly, quite honestly, when we were dating, there was some sexuality every time we dated, and we were seeing each other most every day. So we weren’t not being somewhat sexual with each other.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:21:32]:
We were. And so I just considered that the pattern was going to be even better with full on sex. And so I was so confused. And I really. I reached out to people who were older than I was, people in my church who were leaders, and tried to get some help and some counsel, like, what’s going on? And got the craziest answers, really got hurtful kinds of advice. Well, have you tried lingerie? Have you tried this? And let me tell you, I tried everything. Like, yes, yes, I tried all that. And, you know, eventually, you know, we went to therapy, and it was so painful, because I think, like a lot of therapists, which is why we trained therapists, you know, that they didn’t know what to do with this.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:22:26]:
And, you know, they started saying things like crazy things, like, well, you’re just not attractive enough for your partner. And therapists were saying this, and I got really injured. You know, I. My husband and I saw some films of our, our children’s early years. We were wanting to show our kids these films, and we looked back on it, and I looked at that young woman, and I was like, she was so pretty, and I thought I was fat, and I wasn’t, you know, like, in this perspective, I was. I had a beautiful body. And for therapists to be saying, you know, you’re not attractive enough, I’m like, holy crap, not only were they dead wrong, because I was pretty and attractive, but, you know, I think they just couldn’t make sense of it. And, like, you’ve said.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:23:16]:
So.

George Faller [00:23:16]:
Just to comment on that, though, just real quick, Lori, because, again, just to highlight, I don’t think there’s anything worse? Not only to be rejected, but then be blamed for the very rejection. Like, it’s your fault. Right? That’s what’s so gaslighting for so many pursuers. Like, every part of them is trying so hard, and then they’re being told, try harder. It’s really your fault. I mean, that’s really terrible.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:23:37]:
I know. And you talk about it when things aren’t going well. There’s only a few things we can do, right? We blame our partner as they’re bad and terrible, or we blame ourselves as I’m bad and terrible. And in the sexual cycle, very frequently. And I resonated with this. I’m not good enough. I’m not attractive enough. I had therapists telling me this, and I think in our culture, certainly as a female, there’s a lot of pressure about how you look, and you’re just never perfect.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:24:07]:
And, you know, so that was highlighted for me, and I think, you know, just didn’t know how to talk about it. And I think that now, as my husband and I debrief it those years and what was going on, I get it. You know, he came from a family that was kind of like the North Pole. It was very cold, and warmth and physical affection wasn’t very present. And so the intimacy that was kind of demanded in the sexual relationship, he wasn’t prepared for that. He did want sex. He did feel sexual in his body. But all the rigorous relating that was required and, you know, let alone.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:24:49]:
Right, learning a female body. Men aren’t taught that. You know, he was anxious about pleasing me. I mean, there was so much pressure that he was experiencing, but not able to talk about. And so he would just shut down and. And go away from me.

George Faller [00:25:05]:
You can see the setup, right?

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:25:07]:
Yep.

George Faller [00:25:08]:
No one’s doing anything wrong. But you both lost with that setup. And, you know, it’s a similar story as me and my wife go back to 911. It’s like I had very little capacity to have these emotional conversations, but the one way that I did trust that I could recharge was to be intimate. It was more than just sex, to just have that moment, to forget about 911 and stress and just kind of feel. Feel each other’s body and just let myself go for a moment. And it was so important for me. And, you know, I could totally get now how my wife, the last thing, she don’t know if I’m coming back.

George Faller [00:25:42]:
Like, she’s gonna want to have sex where we can’t. She can’t talk about anything. There’s no emotional process in this. I mean, she must have felt so far away from me and, you know, to have me want to have sex without any words, you know, that really put her in a tough place. And, you know, no wonder why she was reluctant or hesitant. And when I picked up on that, that started off my rejection and frustrations and the pressure I put on her. And it’s like, you know, so many years of this negative cycle, neither one of us really saw the bigger picture, which is so easy to point the finger. You know, I started to become the sex starved person when really this is just how I wanted to feel loved in the world.

George Faller [00:26:22]:
She became this broken person with low desire where this really had nothing to do with that. It was just this cycle again. So, you know, being able to get that, that feedback loop and starting to. And I got this afterwards. This was. I mean, I got the emotional cycle pretty quickly, but I never connected the dots that the sexual cycle is the same thing just in reverse. Vos, like, I didn’t even see that until many years later. And I look back like, damn, so many wasted times and fights where we could have just kind of grabbed each other’s hands and said, hey, listen, this is set up.

George Faller [00:26:54]:
It’s not your fault. It’s not my fault. Let’s do this differently.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:26:59]:
Yeah. And when I think about with mercy toward our partners, so many sexual withdrawals are labeled as having low desire or lower desire. It doesn’t matter how you say it, it’s still bad. And the reality is they’re often not communicating, but even in touch with what desire they do have because they’re caught in the cycle. And so desire is something that they’re blamed for not having, but they haven’t even explored that. I mean, of course the sexual pursuer wants them to explore that and thinks that they’re giving space for that, that pathologizing, it’s so tough. And I think for my husband, too, it was not stereotypical. So what message was he getting? Like, well, you’re not really a man if you don’t act like I think men should act.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:27:58]:
And I don’t think the therapist particularly gave him that message. But I think living in the culture where men are always the sexual pursuer, he didn’t know where to put this in his head. So, I mean, I think it was really tough. And of course, that probably is my heart for educating therapists and doing this podcast, like, to give people another paradigm, another way of thinking about this, a way through to each other to save them the pain that you and I have just described, we went through, it’s.

George Faller [00:28:32]:
So healing, you know, when both partners grab each other’s hands and say, hey, female partner, your low desire is not your fault. It’s not who you are. It’s a byproduct of this dynamics. Or, you know, you say to the husband, listen, there’s nothing wrong for your healthy need for sex. And when you don’t get it, it’s normally get frustrated that frustration is a byproduct of the cycle. It’s not who you are. You’re not something wrong with you, right? This is a byproduct of that cycle. Externalizing the problem, blaming the cycle.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:29:05]:
And I think one of the things I hear and what you said is, this is the way I felt love. It was the most tangible way I felt love. And I think so many men are told this really toxic message of all you want is sex. You just want to use me. My body, really, the way you described it was that was how I connected. That was the way I felt love. That was the deepest way for me that I could connect to my wife. And I see this every day of the week.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:29:41]:
Men talking about both. Yes, of course. I want pleasure, and I want ecstasy in our bodies, but I also want intimacy and connection. This is how I feel it. It’s the surest route. And I think as a female sexual pursuer, it was very tangible for me, like having sex was and is kind of the most tangible way to feel deeply connected to my partner. You know, I can’t kind of even imagine any other way that is so real. And I try to take in words, trust me, you know, I know words are important, but that’s.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:30:19]:
That’s a sure thing.

George Faller [00:30:21]:
Well, it’s one of my passions for doing this podcast to help men specifically not have to apologize for a way that they feel safe and loved in the world. They can do it in a way that honors their partner, that sees the reality of what a cycle does to somebody, you know, who can connect in a lot of different ways and only gets this one way forced upon them all the time. And that would suck for anybody. But really, when both partners start to see this setup where both of them are losing because of this dynamics, it really shares the blame and frees both people up to try something new, which is what we need for a positive cycle.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:30:59]:
Yeah, exactly.

George Faller [00:31:01]:
Well, let’s end with that homework assignment. Laurie, the demon dialogue.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:31:06]:
Okay, you’re going to have to read both parts.

George Faller [00:31:08]:
That’s all right. This is just giving you, homework. This is a way of organizing. Go to our website, just fill it out. But this would be, you know, me talking to my wife. When you don’t want to have sex and rollover, I tend to get critical. I criticize you in the hope that you’re going to see the problem and change. When this does not work, I decide, like, I just can’t, you know, our sex life’s going to just suck.

George Faller [00:31:36]:
We’re doomed for failure. I realize that the more I criticize you, the more you seem to not want to have sex and the more and more we’re cut off from each other and the cycle is winning. So again, you can just see what you’re hoping for just leads to this cycle of both people losing.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:31:56]:
But again, this script is identifying both parts of the cycle and taking responsibility. Okay, do the sexual withdrawal.

George Faller [00:32:04]:
This is my wife talking to me. When you criticize me, I do not feel safely connected to you. I then tend to disengage and roll over and not want to have sex. I do this in a hope that you’re just going to stop criticizing me and leave me alone. When this doesn’t work, I decide I’ll never make you happy. I’m always going to fail you sexually. I realize that the more I disappear, the more you get angry, the more we keep losing, the more the cycle wins.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:32:37]:
That’s good. That’s a good one. So we’re all in our website, we’re in a mess together.

George Faller [00:32:44]:
And if you can name it, you can tame it, you can change it. So.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:32:48]:
Okay, well, hope you get through the dud. And we’re giving you tools to do that in the school of love. Thanks for listening.

George Faller [00:32:57]:
Kick that cycle’s ass.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:32:59]:
Okay, so tell us about your cutting edge training that you’re doing on success and vulnerability,

George Faller [00:33:06]:
Laurie, we just keep pushing it. Coming up with a new module on the playbook of a pursuer, playbook of a witcher. Really practical moment by moment moves or what a therapist can use. We’re so focused on what’s happening in session enough. There’s talk about theories and these global things I think most therapists are looking for. What do I do in this moment? Give me a tool, George. So that’s what we’re trying to do.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:33:31]:
That’s awesome. I am so glad you guys are doing this work. I think it helps us be organized to see you do it. You do demos, you do explanations, teaching. It really is interactive, and I think that so many trainings that we sit through don’t give us an opportunity for that. So what you’re doing is really, really important.

George Faller [00:33:51]:
No, we try to emphasize the teach it, show it, do it model of learning. You need to have some ideas, so we try to teach those, and then we try to show what it looks like implementing those ideas. But most importantly, you now got to practice it. That’s how they become yours, and that’s what we want our listeners and watchers to do and become their own moves.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:34:09]:
Find George and his teaching at successandvulnerability.com.

Joe Davis – Announcer [00:34:14]:
Call in your questions to the Foreplay question voicemail. Dial 833-my4play. That’s eight three three my the number four play, and we’ll use the questions for our mailbag episodes. All content is for entertainment purposes only and should not be considered as a substitute for therapy by a licensed clinician or as medical advice from a doctor. This podcast is copyrighted by foreplay media.