Transcript

Kristen Bell [00:00:00]:
This is Kristen Bell and Adam Brody.

Adam Brody [00:00:02]:
And were dating in our new show.

Kristen Bell [00:00:04]:
Nobody wants this.

Kristen Bell [00:00:05]:
Right?

Kristen Bell [00:00:05]:
Right.

Kristen Bell [00:00:05]:
We’re not really dating.

Adam Brody [00:00:06]:
No.

Adam Brody [00:00:07]:
In real life, we’re married, right?

Kristen Bell [00:00:08]:
Married to other people, not each other.

Adam Brody [00:00:10]:
Ugh. This is complicated.

Kristen Bell [00:00:11]:
Right? It’s just like our love lives. And nobody wants this. A show about what happens when a bold and sometimes provocative podcast host finds her unlikely match in a sweet, traditional rabbi.

Adam Brody [00:00:21]:
Nobody wants this.

Kirsten Bell [00:00:22]:
Launch’s September 26, only on Netflix.

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Disclaimer [00:01:25]:
The following content is not suitable for children.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:01:28]:
School of love we’re going to talk about how to find common ground. How do you have empathy for what your partner’s going through? Where do you get that deep sense of I get you. How do we find that? And we’re going to teach you next.

George Faller [00:01:43]:
Bring it on, baby.

Laurie Watson [00:01:47]:
Welcome to Foreplay sex therapy. I’m doctor Lori Watson, your sex therapist.

George Faller [00:01:52]:
And I’m George Fowler, your couples therapist.

Laurie Watson [00:01:54]:
We are here to talk about sex.

George Faller [00:01:56]:
Our mission is to help couples talk about sex in ways that incorporate their body, their mind, and their hearts.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:02:04]:
And we have a little bit of fun doing it. Right, G?

George Faller [00:02:06]:
Listen, and let’s change some relationships. All right, Laurie, so we’ve talked about that step four, uniting against the cycle emotionally. And then we talked about uniting against the cycle sexually. And for most couples, they flip flop those positions, right? That crisscross a hybrid is the most common dynamics, where if you’re the husband and a heterosexual couple, you might be the emotional withdrawal, but sexually you pursue, and if you’re the wife, you might emotionally pursue, but then you sexually withdraw. And that’s the most common dynamics. We’ll talk about the same when you’re both the pursuer and both the withdrawal at the end of this. But let’s just start off with that most common. What I get super excited about.

George Faller [00:02:49]:
There’s so much common ground when you can kind of compare both cycles. So when I think about my relationship, like, emotionally, we’re in a fight, I’m like, why is she being critical? I don’t get, like, can’t she see there’s no value to that? She should just relax and take a break. Like, I do. Like, it seems like a foreign language. I don’t know why she needs to go there. But if you can get me to tap into the sexual cycle, I know exactly what it’s like when you want someone to engage and they won’t, and how much your body mobilizes and wants to push for a conversation or push to read a new book. It’s like, we’re not so different after all. If you can get me to tap into that angry part of myself in the sexual cycle, I have a lot more understanding of what happens to my wife in the emotional cycle.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:03:33]:
Exactly.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:03:34]:
Because that’s how we find empathy, is we have a common experience, like, in this way, in the cycle, when we’re crisscrossed, it’s really natural. It’s like, okay, not only is it a common experience of frustration, maybe, or of feeling overwhelmed, but it’s with our very partner, like, oh, gosh, I know what it’s like to want something from you and not be able to get it and how frustrating that feels on the inside, how I get angry. So we can imagine with compassion, like, that’s what our partner is going through. The common ground is where we find that empathy is just looking inside. I know what it’s like to be frustrated, or I know what it’s like to feel pressured and overwhelmed. And I know what it’s like to feel like I’m failing in some area. I really have so much hope when I work with a crisscross couple, when their styles are crisscrossed, because I know that I can get them to see what you’re doing in this cycle is exactly what your partner is doing in that cycle. Can you see that? And many times, it’s like the lights come on, like, oh, yeah, I can see that.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:04:51]:
I can feel that. Now I know why they’re so frustrated.

George Faller [00:04:56]:
Yeah, we throw this word empathy around, but to do empathy well, it starts with, you have to touch something in yourself that knows that place that you’re trying to get in the other person. Right. And if it feels like you can’t get it because you can’t touch something in yourself, then you don’t get there. Even though you want it to be empathetic, your body doesn’t get you to the place of feeling with someone else. That’s why using the other cycle to get people to tap into. So for my wife, right, for her to, you know, she doesn’t get why I walk away in a fight. Like, every part of her is like, you can’t fix it if you walk away, you’ll never repair. If you walk away, like, why the hell would you ever walk away? And it seems like I’m crazy when I do this, so I don’t care.

George Faller [00:05:39]:
Well, all she’s got to do is she’s got to tap into the bedroom when she’s not in a mood to have sex, and here comes the pressure for her, and her ability to roll over is how she feels safe. It gets her away from that dilemma that she finds herself in. Right. And that there’s that safety in withdrawal. That’s all I’m looking for in the emotional cycle. So to get her to tap into that, it’s like, oh, I do know this feeling.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:06:03]:
Yeah, exactly. Empathy triggers something inside of us. It’s like the desire to take care of our partner. You know, we want to come toward them. We want to. Even though they’re the one who is hurting us. When we feel empathy, it’s like you’re doing that thing because you’re hurting on the inside. And so, you know, it.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:06:29]:
It triggers really, our caregiving. You know, like, okay, I want to soothe you, I want to comfort you, I want to come close to you because it’s, you know, it’s like if our dog gets hit in the street, maybe this is a bad metaphor. We love that dog, and we know they may bite us because they’re so injured, but we are going to take care of that. You know, that dog that got hurt, we’re going to come for them. And it’s the same sort of thing. Like, we know that coming toward our partner, they may bite us, they may hurt us, but we care so much about them and their pain that we’re going to endure whatever it takes to get them better, to heal them. That’s what empathy does.

George Faller [00:07:12]:
Yeah. And we’re trying to give you the best chance of tapping into that and to know what the mission is. So if I’m. If I want to understand why. Laurie, let’s. Let’s do Joey and Janie again. Okay. All right.

George Faller [00:07:28]:
So if Janae is the sexual withdrawer. But the emotional pursuer and Joey’s the emotional withdrawal and the sexual pursuer.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:07:35]:
Crisscross cycle.

George Faller [00:07:36]:
Crisscross cycle that we have. And I want to talk about the sexual cycle, and I want to talk about, you know, being curious, why does Janae withdraw? Right. If I need to tap into why I withdraw in the emotional cycle, it just center me so I could understand Laurie. But the goal of this role play is to understand Laurie. It’s not for me to give my talking points about why I want sex or why I protest. Right. It’s about, you got to really take a moment to say, what’s the goal of this conversation? What’s the mission? I want to use my empathy so I understand Laurie so she feels seen by me. That’s the goal of this one.

George Faller [00:08:17]:
And we could switch things around, of course, but really just trying to be clear on what the goal is.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:08:22]:
Yeah, exactly. Okay, so you’re going to start me off because maybe you’re going to start from the sexual cycle.

George Faller [00:08:30]:
Yep.

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George Faller [00:10:38]:
So, Janae, I’m really. I’ve really been doing a lot of thinking, and I know your reluctance to want to have these sexual conversations, and that reluctance is super frustrating for me, but, you know, I’m really trying to kind of get it in a different way. Like, if you’re always dealing with my frustration, no wonder why you don’t want to have these conversations. Like, that was so confusing to me because it’s like, not having these conversations is never going to fix it. But I think what I’ve been starting to do is wait. I do know what it’s like to not want to have conversations, right, where we talk about the emotional cycle, where you want to talk about your mom or their kids or your friends. Like, and I. I don’t have a lot of capacity.

George Faller [00:11:20]:
Like, me putting up a wall and not engaging has nothing to do with not caring. It’s just, like, it’s not the right time. My body says it’s just gonna get worse. It’s gonna get into a fight. Like, don’t do it, don’t do it, don’t do it. And, like, there’s safety in me not engaging. Like, it’s a choice that my body makes to protect itself. I don’t see what it does to you, the bigger picture.

George Faller [00:11:40]:
So I don’t know. I just. I just want to let you know I’m really starting to see. I’m touching something in myself that knows why you don’t engage and can see the wisdom in that. I mean, I still want to work on it and change it, obviously, but I really am sorry that I haven’t seen that all these years. I’ve just. I’ve only seen my own survival in that, and I haven’t seen the good reasons you do disengage and put up walls, because I do know what that’s like.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:12:03]:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, likewise. I’ve been thinking about it, too, the same sort of thing. It’s like, I can get so frustrated when you don’t want to talk about certain things that are conflictual and.

George Faller [00:12:19]:
You.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:12:19]:
Know, and I know. I just kind of push harder and I don’t get it. Like, you know, in the moment. I don’t get it. Like, why are you shutting down? This is so important to us. We got to solve this. And I get more frantic, and I push harder, and you shut down harder. And I’ve thought about that, too.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:12:37]:
That sexually, that’s kind of what you’re doing to. You’re pushing me. It’s important. And I do kind of feel that same sort of pressure to respond and the desire, ironically, just to go away. It is anxiety producing for me when it’s reversed. When you want to talk about sex, I get crazy inside. I mean, literally, honey, I feel my blood pressure come up. I mean, that’s what it’s like.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:13:06]:
And I’m just imagining that when I want to talk to you about, you know, the kids bad grades or how much money are we going to spend on the vacation or things that make you uptight anyway, like, and you just go off to the garage. It’s like, okay, okay, this is. He’s probably trying to calm himself down. And I, you know, I don’t like it because I really feel like I want us to have a way to, you know, to get through to each other. But I think I’m beginning to understand it because, yeah, when you want to talk about sex, my blood pressure goes up, and I want to stop the conversation. And I guess when I want to talk about the kids or money or whatever, you know, you are probably feeling the same thing inside. I kind of am getting that. And so it makes more sense why you want to go away.

George Faller [00:14:00]:
Thank you. All right, so let’s pause. You can see how Joey and Janae are starting to see the bigger picture. They’re using these two cycles that they’re trying to work against. Right? We talked about externalizing blame the cycles, and now they’re using those negative cycles to start finding empathy and more common ground, to start recognizing they’re not so different after all. Humans only have those two ways of dealing with disconnection, right? Fight or flight. We all do some of both. Being able to tap into that and see, see, shed humanity.

George Faller [00:14:33]:
It really bridges a lot of that distance and lowers reactivity.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:14:37]:
Yeah, exactly.

George Faller [00:14:40]:
Yeah.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:14:40]:
And don’t we love role playing? Because it’s like, you know, it’s so funny because even when we put ourselves in that place, it increases my understanding for my own personal life. And, like, when I hear myself say and my blood pressure goes up, it’s like I’m thinking, yeah, and you know what? In conflict, my blood pressure does go up. One of the things my husband and I did when we were young, married, is we would have a conversation about him and her, because we were often, we played counselor to our friends, and we realized if we would talk about ourselves kind of in the third person, we would get further. So we say, well, she feels this. And he’d say, well, he feels this. And it was just a way to externalize it and talk about it, you know, without as much escalation in our bodies.

George Faller [00:15:30]:
Yeah, well, it’s something really helpful about working together. And that’s, I think what we’ll do, Laurie s let’s talk about how we’ve done this in our own relationships, and then we’ll keep the conversation rolling.

Laurie Watson [00:15:49]:
Okay.

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George Faller [00:18:47]:
So, Laurie, I think it’s always humbling doing this, where it’s easy to do role plays when you’re in a calm, green brain. And, you know, we’ve done this with thousands of couples. I always chuckle to myself, though. It’s not funny. It’s pretty frustrating that, you know, I might be away in some country teaching about this, and then my wife’s with me and, you know, I’ll look to get lucky when I get back to the hotel room and she’s not in a mood and it’s like, boom, you just like that. I’m right back in it. I’m like, what the hell this is, you know, it’s holding back, that critic. It’s that yellow brain.

George Faller [00:19:21]:
It just gets tunnel vision. It just focus on itself. It doesn’t see the bigger picture. It can’t access empathy. Our heart shuts down, our ears shut down. And, you know, I think why we’re doing this is not saying this isn’t ever. You’re going to stop it. It comes back.

George Faller [00:19:35]:
But it just gets easier to have that conversation afterwards. It’s easy the next day to say, you know what? Yeah, I wouldn’t want to have sex if I came on that way either. Right. Like, I get why you want to disengage. And, you know, my ability to see my wife allows her to say, yeah, and I’m sorry, you know, we didn’t do what we needed to get me in a place where I wanted to have sex and it’s like, you know, you can start. I mean, and she gives me permission, like, there’s nothing wrong that, like, you’ve had a long day. You want to connect with me that way, you know, and that I wasn’t able to get there because of everything else happening. Like, it’s just getting back to that common ground, getting back to saying, hey, we both just lost last night.

George Faller [00:20:13]:
Not your fault. Not my fault. Tap into something in both of you that knows it, and then you can get back into the sweet spot.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:20:20]:
Right? You’ve been gone all day. I’ve been dealing with all these other issues at home, and I want to talk to you about it. And you want to do what? It’s like, no, I need to connect. I need to download.

George Faller [00:20:30]:
I need, you know, Kathy, she’s also walked, like, 15 miles during the day, and she’s. Her body spent, and then she’s got to entertain with tall people she don’t know, and she’s pushing herself. So when she gets home, she just wants to pass out. Her body’s like, she’s got nothing in a tank. The last thing she’s going to want to do is fool around, and it’s. It’s a setup for both of us.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:20:50]:
Yeah. Yeah, that’s so true. Teaching is convicting, though, I gotta say, like, you know, hearing myself talk about something, I feel oftentimes that I need to apply it to my own life, in my life, you know, we are more of the parallel cycles, not the crisscross style.

Laurie Watson [00:21:09]:
So we’re both.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:21:09]:
I’m the pursuer in both emotional cycles and my husband, the withdrawer in both emotional and sexual.

George Faller [00:21:15]:
Can we talk about that for a.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:21:16]:
Second before you get into that?

Laurie Watson [00:21:17]:
Yeah, I want to describe that.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:21:19]:
You know, like, many times, about 25% of the time, couples are in the same sort of position to be a pursuer in both cycles. And so the difficulty with that is we don’t have that natural empathy. Like, oh, this is what my partner goes through because it’s like, hey, I’m frustrated in both places. That’s not fair, or I’m pressured in both places. And I keep getting the message that I’m not good enough in both ways. And so it’s really hard to see empathy, and I wanted to give our listeners a way to find that empathy.

George Faller [00:22:00]:
Yeah, well, just to normalize how difficult there is more distance when you’re in the parallel, same process. I mean, I see this a lot with male pursuers who are the sexual pursuer and the emotional pursuer, and that energy is like every part of them wants to fight and say, we need to deal with this, we need to confront this, we need to fix it. And it comes on strong, you know? And that withdrawal just keeps trying to not engage, to find safety. I mean, that is more of a foreign language that couples going to have harder job. There’s more work to do just to normalize that than a couple that has that more common ground. There’s less common ground. So you’re going to have to work harder to try to speak that other person’s language because it’s not the natural language for you.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:22:43]:
Right, exactly. You’re going to have to dig deeper. And so for me, what I ask people to do and what I ask myself to do is, while it may not be the same in my couple relationship, I certainly know what it’s like to be in a relationship where I feel like I’m failing or I feel like no matter what I do is not good enough. Certainly if I can look back with my parents or always, you know, failing one or the other, or maybe it is with an important relationship, you know, a friendship that I’ve had where for whatever reason, I’m not in my sweet spot, I’m not pursuing, I’m withdrawing. And I keep getting this message from my friend that, you know, I’m not good enough. And I can feel that. I mean, as a pursuer, I have had lots of relationships where I’m not good enough, you know, so I do know that experience. And then I have to kind of to find the empathy for that.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:23:45]:
I have to, like you said, touch myself. I have to, ooh, that’s a sex podcast that just. That just went sideways, know what I mean? I have to touch the heart of me inside, like, to figure out what does it feel like to me to not be good enough.

George Faller [00:24:02]:
We’ll talk about touching yourself later.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:24:05]:
Okay, we can talk about that later. But, you know, like, when I feel not good enough, you know, I almost feel everything in my stomach, you know, that’s like, it’s kind of like rolling and all of that, and it just, you know, it kind of makes the day gray, like, ugh, you know, it’s depressing to not be good enough for somebody to not live up to their expectations, you know, and then that depression, it’s just like I’m walking around with a cloud over my head, you know? So that’s how I get in touch with what does it feel like for my husband when he’s getting these messages from me as a pursuer that are critical, you know, like, ugh, that’s what he’s going through, that gray cloud, bad feeling in his stomach, you know? And then I think that does not feel good.

George Faller [00:24:58]:
Yeah.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:24:58]:
And I can reach out.

George Faller [00:25:00]:
I mean, pursuers, though, do want to try so they. They can go through those, I think, iterations that you’re talking about a lot of times for the withdrawal in both, it can be harder work, right. Trying to tap into the anger, trying to get them to mobilize and say, hey, this isn’t okay. Like, there’s something unfair about this. You want it to change. Like, to tap into that energy can be so foreign for them, right? And it’s as they try to do it, their alarm system saying, don’t do that, don’t do that. Turn it down, turn it down, turn it down. So if you are the sexual withdrawal and the emotional withdrawal, you know, you’ve been trained not to access that anger, that pushing energy.

George Faller [00:25:41]:
So I like that you’re saying, and if you can’t do it in your relationship, can you watch a movie? Can you see, like, Rosa parks on the back of the bus that had to say no and stand up? Like, can you just find examples in life stories where people stand up and try to create change with their assertive, you know, healthy anger that wants something better than what they have? Like, it’s such an important emotion to tap into, right? And if you’ve been trained your whole life not to get it, just like you haven’t had touch your whole life, it’s hard to access the longings that want something different. But this is the fight that all withdrawers have to do, right? They have to try to tap into something in themselves that wants something different, that sees they can be more to their life than just kind of making people happy and performing and doing their job. Right. It’s an assertion of self that I think so critical.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:26:32]:
And I think many of us have children. And so in the parent role, we can often see the need of the child that how much touch the child does actually need. And even if we didn’t get touch and we grew up saying, I’m never going to need that again, it’s unsafe to want touched. We can see in our children they need so much affection just to stabilize for half an hour. And we can imagine that was me at some age. Maybe I don’t remember, maybe I don’t want to remember, but I did need it because this is what is natural in children or the child who needs us to come for them. You know, they’re pulling away. They’re, you know, they, they need us to initiate.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:27:23]:
And so it, it pulls out in us, like, okay, I get it. It’s really human to need somebody to come for you.

George Faller [00:27:31]:
It’s so important. Again, I want to highlight that because this is, so many withdrawers in both the sexual and the emotional are pursuers when they are parents. Right. So you can tap into that part that will fight for your kids, that knows if they don’t find their words or they don’t, it’s not going to be okay for their development. So you push, you advocate for them. Right. And we want you to do that for yourself. But to be able to tap into that first, to say, I do know what that energy is like when I can’t get my kid to respond and they’re doing something that goes against their best interests and I have to get involved because saying nothing is only going to make them continue to go down a wrong road.

George Faller [00:28:08]:
I mean, to be able to tap into that, it’s so, so needed to tap into that part of yourself.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:28:13]:
Exactly. And it is, it’s a second chance, you know, when we have children to see, you know, what we might have been going through so many times parents have difficulties with their children at certain ages. And what I’ve learned over the years is that was often a time that you were having difficulty as a child with your parents. The reason you don’t know how to handle the kid is because somebody didn’t handle you well during that stage. And so, you know, it’s just, it’s a good little reminder. It’s like, well, if, you know, if you’re fearful about having teenagers, you know, probably your parents didn’t know what to do with you, didn’t know what your needs really were and how to set you free with good boundaries. You know, I mean, it makes sense that you would be having difficulty with children at different ages if you weren’t handled well with care and attunement and all of that. So it, it’s like raising children is a constant need for empathy because we have to be empathic with ourself, the part of us that didn’t get what we needed, and then we have to be empathic with our children so we can attune better to them.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:29:22]:
It’s an exercise, right? Same as marriage. I mean, marriage is kind of an exercise in empathy. And in order for it to go well, we got to access deep parts of ourself and have mercy on those parts so that we can then care about our partner and their difficulties.

George Faller [00:29:36]:
Yep. And that’s the spirit of this podcast, is just to make room for. There’s more common ground than you realize. What might feel like a radically different perspective and you can’t relate to it. You can if you tap into something in yourself, in different relationships or things you see somewhere else. This other person’s not that strange after all, right? They’re pretty human. They’re in a vulnerable spot. They’re struggling, and they’re protecting themselves.

George Faller [00:30:05]:
And I think we all can relate to that. And when we all start to relate to that, there’s just so much more that unites us than what makes us different and separate. And that’s the true beauty of a cycle. It’s trying to unite us. When we unite it, we’re capable of doing so much more than when we’re pointing our fingers. And that’s, you know, everyone listening can do that. That’s the good news here.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:30:27]:
We’re going to unite with empathy. So thanks for listening.

George Faller [00:30:31]:
Keep it hot, y’all.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:30:33]:
Okay, so tell us about your cutting edge training that you’re doing on success and vulnerability.

George Faller [00:30:40]:
Laurie, we just keep pushing it. Coming up with a new module on the playbook of a pursuer, playbook of a witcher, really practical moment by moment moves of what a therapist can use. We’re so focused on what’s happening in session enough. There’s talk about theories and these global things I think most therapists are looking for. What do I do in this moment? Give me a tool, George. So that’s what we’re trying to do.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:31:05]:
That’s awesome. I am so glad you guys are doing this work. I think it helps us be organized to see you do it. You do demos, you do explanations, teaching. It really is an interactive, and I think that so many trainings that we sit through don’t give us an opportunity for that. So what you’re doing is really important.

George Faller [00:31:24]:
No, we try to emphasize the teach it, show it, do it model of learning. You need to have some ideas, so we try to teach those, and then we try to show what it looks like implementing those ideas. But most importantly, you now got to practice it. That’s how they become yours. And that’s what we want our listeners and watchers to do, is become their own moves.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:31:43]:
Find George and his teaching at successandvulnerability.com.

Closing Announcer [00:31:47]:
Call in your questions to the four play question voicemail. Dial 833. My foreplay. That’s eight three three my the number four play. And we’ll use the questions for our mailbag episodes. All content is for entertainment purposes only and should not be considered as a substitute for therapy by a licensed clinician or as medical advice from a doctor. This podcast is copyrighted by Foreplay media.