Transcript

Spectrum Ad/Disclaimer [00:00:00]:
Everyone deserves a fast and reliable connection, one that helps better their everyday through the things they value most, friends and family, education and career. A connection that opens pathways to opportunity and builds roads to a better future. At Spectrum, we’re committed to delivering just that every single day because with the right connection, anything is possible. That’s life unlimited. That’s Spectrum. The following content is not suitable for children. Let’s talk about the test to really know we’ve united against the cycle, Laurie.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:00:38]:
Ooh, I like tests. Okay. Welcome to Foreplay sex therapy. I’m doctor Laurie Watson, your sex therapist.

George Faller [00:00:48]:
And I’m George Faller, your couples therapist.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:00:50]:
We are here to talk about sex.

George Faller [00:00:52]:
Our mission is to help couples talk about sex in ways that incorporate their body, their mind and their hearts.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:01:00]:
And we have a little bit of fun doing it right, G?

George Faller [00:01:04]:
Listen, and let’s change some relationships.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:01:06]:
We want to draw your attention to our upcoming couples retreat on October 4. It’s on our website, foreplayrst.com or foreplaysextherapy.com. and you can find us and register. We’re still in our early bird registration, so you can save a little bit of money and that helps us know how many of you are coming and, you know, just help smooth out our process. And then we have a training for EFT therapists in January in Nashville. So we are really excited about that. We’re going to do three days together, two days of kind of lecture and didactic training, and then we’re going to do one day that is therapist led where we’re really going to hopefully supervise your tapes and answer your questions and do, you know, work with you that is driven by your need and when you work with sexuality?

George Faller [00:01:56]:
Yes. And we are definitely going to have a shot for Doctor Sue Johnson in Nashville. So all those therapists afterwards we can go a nice Nashville bar and really pay tribute to the lady who’s made such a difference in this world.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:02:09]:
We’re going to do shots, right? Of Scotch, isn’t it? In tribute to Sue Johnson. We’re going to do shots.

George Faller [00:02:15]:
Shots or shot depending on what you’re in a mood for.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:02:20]:
Okay. Yeah. Because about one shot will put me under the table.

George Faller [00:02:23]:
Yeah.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:02:25]:
I’m a lightweight.

George Faller [00:02:26]:
And we want to also appreciate our listeners from successive vulnerability that we’re really excited. There are so many members joining us that are trying to push the leading edges of therapy and really break down moment by moment what’s happening in session and watching tapes. And it’s just so exciting to be around people who want to grow and get clear and make the implicit explicit. Thank you all for listening.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:02:51]:
Yeah. And our partners, James and Ryan Reyna. James Hawkins, Doctor James Hawkins and Doctor Ryan Reyna, they do a cool podcast for you therapists who want to listen. You know, it’s called The Leading Edge and something I learned from and listen to every week. It’s a great kind of teaching tool, something that we’d just like you to tune into as well.

George Faller [00:03:13]:
Yeah. And also Julie Manano’s Instagram just secure relationship. And, you know, she’s got a new podcast coming out, working with couples, and that’s going to be exciting. She’s going to show actually what happens in couples therapy, and I’ll be giving her feedback along the way for that project. So. Yeah. And exciting things happening. A lot of people in different arenas pointing in the same direction, which is trying to help people love better and strengthen their relationships.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:03:41]:
Cool.

George Faller [00:03:42]:
Well, I liked when you said, Laurie, I like a test, George. Most of us hate tests. Laurie likes tests. Let’s hear about that.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:03:48]:
Yeah, I like tests because then it gives me, like, firm parameters around where I need to go next. You know, I like to see things in writing, so I like written tests. I like to see, like, you know, I’m a sucker for Facebook. Like, take this test and learn your style about x, y, and z. I’m the one who always takes those tests because I like to see where I’m at, and it gives me sort of a progress report.

George Faller [00:04:12]:
So concrete information. I like it. So we’re not that different sometimes. I always like the measurable and the practical. But you’re saying you have a side of you that likes the same thing.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:04:22]:
Yep.

George Faller [00:04:23]:
All right, cool. Well, I think we get this a lot. When I’m training therapists, it’s like they explain the cycle to a couple, and the couple nods their head and they understand conceptually the cycle, but they keep going back and fighting and losing, like any progress made, and they just kind of keep relapsing what the, what we call it. So I always say, right, have you done the test? And this is what the test is. First of all, do each partners get why they do what they do? So does Laurie get why she pursues that? It’s her way of trying to feel like she can create change. It’s her hope that things are going to happen and improve. Can I get why I withdraw that? That’s what I do, to feel safe, where I can reset and kind of control things when I take space. Like, do both people understand why they do what they do.

George Faller [00:05:13]:
And usually when I say that, I’m like, all right, great. You know, people nod their heads and they kind of get it. So we check that box. Here comes the second box. More importantly, do you get the good reasons your partner does the move that you hate? You know, do I get why Lori pushes and does she get why I go away? And a lot of times when you do that, couples like, yeah, I think so. But they’re not as clear on their partner’s move as they are on their own. And why is that? Their brain has had thousands of interactions where they fight this other person’s move. So the test for de escalation, you actually have to turn towards your partner and say, hey, Lori, I used to think your anger was random and you were just being mean.

George Faller [00:05:58]:
Now I’m starting to get that your anger is your hope. It’s your way of fighting for us. It’s trying to befriend and give permission for the move you hate in the other partner. When both people can do this, they really do got their cycle. They really have found that common ground where they understand what’s happening for their partner and it’s not their partner’s fault. It’s a setup for both people. So Laurie would have to get for me that my going away is not because I don’t care or I’m not interested in talking. It’s just that I don’t feel safe, and this is what my body does when I don’t feel safe.

George Faller [00:06:35]:
Like, her permission for that is a gift. It makes me feel seen and understood. So what do you think? We got to do that in emotional and then the sexual cycle, Laurie?

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:06:47]:
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I want to see how it work, how it works out. So we’re going to give each other permission.

George Faller [00:06:54]:
So we’re going to be Joey and Janine.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:06:56]:
Okay. Permission for going away and getting upset.

George Faller [00:07:03]:
Yep. So I’ll start us off. And again, these are just markers. A lot of couples, they get to cycle, but they can’t do this because their parade has no practice. It has no practice befriending this thing. So then they go right back into the old move of criticism or going away. So if you can’t do it, try it again. Try it again.

George Faller [00:07:21]:
When you get to the point where you can do it, you really have gotten the cycle in a really bottom up kind of way. So this would be Joey saying, you know, Janae, I really thought. I never understood your anger. It always felt like it didn’t make any sense to me. But now I am starting to get. It’s perfect timing. It’s in places where you’re really feeling stuck. And your anger is your way of trying to address the problem.

George Faller [00:07:45]:
It’s trying not say, hey, something needs to change. We need to address this. Cause if you don’t say anything at all, nothing’s gonna change. So I can see how your protest, your criticism is actually your fight for us. It’s your hope things are gonna get better. I’m hoping you can do that in a different way. But I am really starting to get the good intent, like, the healthy part of it that’s really trying to make our relationship better. And I normally never can see that.

George Faller [00:08:11]:
But I just want to let you know I can see that now.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:08:15]:
So that makes me feel like I appreciate you seeing that. I appreciate that you understand what’s going on in me. Sometimes I kind of can’t help what I feel and where I go with it. And giving me a little space to do my thing helps, you know? I appreciate that.

George Faller [00:08:39]:
Again, how cool is that to feel like I’m getting you in a way I normally don’t get you because the whole world tells you, stop doing this. It’s not working. To have somebody kind of really empathetically say, if I was in your shoes, I would do the same thing. I get where it comes from.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:08:55]:
Yeah, exactly.

George Faller [00:08:58]:
Let’s see if you can do it.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:09:00]:
I don’t think I can do it. Let’s see. Okay. So, Joey, you know, I know how you grew up, buddy. I know that things weren’t really safe in your family. And, you know, I know that when you and I get into it, it doesn’t feel safe. You’ve told me that about a hundred times, thousands of times, maybe. And I know that just kind of getting your stuff together, going off by yourself or going to get busy on the computer or whatever is kind of your way to calm down.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:09:37]:
And it’s really hard for me because, you know, I’m impatient to get things resolved. But I realize that you got to do that just to kind of save your sanity. And I just want to tell you, like, it’s okay, you know, I’m getting better at being patient and waiting. And I want you to feel comfortable with our conversations. And it’s better for me when you come back in a kind of a straightened out space. So I appreciate that.

George Faller [00:10:12]:
Thank you. That’s really helpful. When you see the intent of my going away has nothing to do with not caring about us or, you know, caring about you. It’s just when I feel overwhelmed, and there’s something about going away that allows me to reset and problem solve better, and, you know, I always come back, and that’s what my heart wants to do, and. But for you, getting that really makes me like, all right, she’s getting me. She’s finally getting me in a way, I don’t think you’ve got me before, so thank you for that. So, again, let’s just pause that. I can feel in that role just the calmness of that.

George Faller [00:10:52]:
It’s like I’ve been told I’m bad for this for 20 years, and now Janae is saying, wait, I still don’t like it, of course, but I understand it in a different way. I see its health. I see it’s good intent, and that’s the common ground. She could tap into some places where she does the same thing. We’re not that strange after all. When we’re in the same space together and understanding each other, that just creates safety for a couple.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:11:18]:
Right, exactly. And this is the test. Right. If they can understand why their partner’s survival move comes online and, ironically say, go ahead and do that. Go do more of that. That’s okay. I mean, it’s counterintuitive to say, do the thing that feels bad to me, but what it does is it loosens that knot where we get tied up with each other, and we can’t. We kind of, you know, in our frustration with each other, we can’t see it from the other one’s perspective, and.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:11:56]:
And then it just escalates. It’s like, by saying to our partner, go ahead, you know, pull away. Get calm. It’s okay. I’ll be here when you get back. I’m waiting for you, and I really want you to be, you know, safe and protected. It’s like, right then and there, it actually creates safety. Yeah, that’s the irony.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:12:17]:
By giving permission, we are creating safety in that very moment. Not in the moment when we’re escalated, but in that moment. And it’s like our partner feels like they can breathe.

George Faller [00:12:28]:
Yep. It doesn’t stop the fight. Sometimes, great, but afterwards, it’s the same. Going back to the same repair, going back to the same common ground that says, sorry, I couldn’t see it. I know. When I got so mad when you walked away, and I said, yeah, you give it. You don’t give a shit. And I got right back into my old moves.

George Faller [00:12:44]:
I know in my heart that’s not what you’re trying to do when you go away. And it is. It is naming and given permission for the healthy intent, that’s not minimizing the impact. The impact is still terrible for both people. When either person in a cycle chooses to protect themselves at the cost of the other person, it hurts and it sucks and, you know, it creates protection in the other person, you know. But just because we’re honoring intent doesn’t mean we’re disregarding impact. We’re just trying to hold both and we’re trying to connect to the good intent first to then stretch people to come up with a different move. So the impact is different, right.

George Faller [00:13:24]:
Well, let’s come back and talk about the sexual cycle.

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Dr. Laurie Watson [00:15:12]:
Many of you reach out to me for couples counseling and personalized help if you want to dramatically improve your intimacy in a short amount of time. I do offer privately scheduled couple counseling intensives. It’s like a private couples retreat. It’s twelve to 16 hours in Raleigh. Maybe you need to get through the emotional cycle where one of you is suffering, feeling rejected, or the other one is feeling abandoned. Or maybe you need a jolt to your sex life. Together we can work through this. We set goals. We dive deep into your dynamics, figure out your negative cycle. We work through the sexual and the emotional process problems.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:15:36]:
And then we often have a dramatic breakthrough. So you can call my office, or you can contact [email protected].

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:16:07]:
Okay, so we’re going to give each other permission in the sexual cycle for the move that we hate. This is going to be harder, right? So tough to say. Hey. Yeah. Okay, so let’s role play this. Maybe since it’s. It’s a little more difficult, we’ll roleplay me as a sexual pursuer, you as a sexual withdrawer.

George Faller [00:16:12]:
Okay.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:16:13]:
Okay. And I’m gonna show. Yeah. Gotta be a different couple.

George Faller [00:16:19]:
So I’m Bill.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:16:21]:
Okay, Bill. All right. And I’ll be Beatrice. Bill and Beatrice. I like our names. Okay. So I’m Beatrice, and I’m a sexual pursuer. And I’m going to give Bill permission to do his move.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:16:40]:
So, honey, you know, we fight so much about sex, and I know that there are. The fight itself doesn’t make you feel good. And I think that what I’ve learned from you is that having sex sometimes when you’re not ready or you’re not in a space for it or you’re, you know, we’ve interrupted kind of another endeavor in your head or whatever is really difficult. And I desperately want to have sex with you, but I also want to have sex with you when you’re ready for it, when you want it, when it’s good for you, and when you’re in a headspace for it. So I just want you to know, it’s like, I’m going to really work hard at saying it’s okay to say no, it’s okay to say you’re not ready. And I’m going to take that, and I’m going to work hard on not personalizing that, that you’re not rejecting me, but you’re telling me about what’s happening in your truth on the inside. And, you know, I want you when you want it, so I want it to be mutual. So I’m just saying it’s okay.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:17:52]:
I’m going to work really hard, and I just want you to tell me your truth about when you’re ready, when you’re not, and if you need to not have sex, that’s okay.

George Faller [00:18:04]:
Well, thank you. I really. It is helpful when you say, like, I know your intent is not to hurt me, because that is so true. There’s no part of me when I don’t want to have sex is trying to hurt you, or I’m not interested in you. It’s everything to do with just this I don’t feel safe. I feel overwhelmed, and I just. I fall back to this default setting that, like, to take pressure off, I just need to get away. And, you know, I’m working on doing that differently.

George Faller [00:18:30]:
But for you to understand that, you know where that’s coming from, and that really makes me feel seen. It makes me feel like you get me. Thank you.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:18:42]:
You’re welcome. It’s hard to do, but I want us to do something differently.

George Faller [00:18:48]:
Yeah.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:18:49]:
Yeah.

George Faller [00:18:50]:
All right. So, you know, on my end, like, it usually is the worst timing when we want to. You want to talk about sex or have sex, and it’s, you know, I could feel how quickly I just want to shut that conversation down. And I, you know, I’m really getting how hard it is for you to have to always be the one bringing it up and how you need your energy, that fighting part of you, to say, hey, listen, we can’t put our head in the sand. We can’t stop talking about this. It’s never going to get better unless we deal with it. And, like, I put that burden on you by always going away in these conversations. So I really do get the intent of your anger and your protest, and it’s really saying, you want something better.

George Faller [00:19:35]:
And I think that’s such a good thing for us, that you want something better. And I’m sorry I so often am not available to engage with that, but, you know, or worse, I pathologize your energy, and I blame you for it. And, you know, I’m sorry for that. I just want to let you know, again, I want you to work on the criticism and the timing, but I do get where it’s coming from, and I really see the health in that.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:19:58]:
Yeah. Wow, that feels really different. I appreciate you explaining what it’s like for you and explaining yourself to me. That feels good. And I also really appreciate you seeing my difficulty with it and kind of telling me that it’s. You understand why I would be frustrated. I get, you know, that it’s okay to be frustrated. I don’t know where to go from here either, but I think we’re gaining ground as we start to talk about this.

George Faller [00:20:32]:
Amen. All right, so let’s stop there.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:20:37]:
Let’s debrief them. Yeah.

George Faller [00:20:39]:
You can see how we’re gaining ground, right? That’s the common ground we keep talking about. There’s more shared space where both people are not pointing a finger at each other. They see this cycle is creating this. It’s not Lori’s fault. She’s angry. It’s not my fault. I go away. We both were doing this before we met each other.

George Faller [00:20:58]:
We’ll probably do this if our relationship doesn’t work. We just see the math behind it. We see the yellow, yellow brains behind, and we start uniting and saying, let’s blame this, this thing, this cycle, this dud instead of each other. Right. It’s such a healthier, more resource platform to then go on to the deeper work that we’re going to talk about in the next episodes coming up.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:21:21]:
Yeah, exactly. It’s definitely a deeper place and gets us ready for real change.

George Faller [00:21:30]:
Yeah. And there’s a fear in it. Right, Laurie? I mean, it’s. Your brain has thousands and thousands of neural pathways designed to try to get the other person to do this differently. You’ve been fighting this move, the whole relationship, and now you’re befriending it. And the fear in that is saying, if I say it’s okay, you’re going to keep doing it, and I, you can’t keep doing this. I need you to change it. Right.

George Faller [00:21:52]:
So again, it’s okay to want to change it. The befriending it is just saying, you know what? I get the intent in it a little bit differently. It’s not given permission to keep doing it forever because it’s. It comes at a big cost, right, to the relationship. But it is starting to see. So I just want our listeners, if this is hard to do, it is supposed to be hard. Your brain has no neural pathways to do this. And a lot of times when you try to do it, the first couple of times, you slip right back into the old move.

George Faller [00:22:19]:
Like, I know you get angry, Laurie, but you should really work on that. Can you see how the anger is not like. And I just go back to what I always do around the anger, and that’s okay. It’s just information. It’s just saying you really don’t fully get your partner. You haven’t been able to be super empathetic and walk in their shoes and see what they see, and it’s just an opportunity to try something. Doing that again.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:22:43]:
I think it is counterintuitive, especially in the sexual cycle, to tell your partner who you are committed to. Like, it’s okay for you not to want to have sex. Even as I was pretending to say that in a role play, it was like, oh, this is so difficult. But again, you know, right, as a sexual pursuer, we don’t want somebody who has sex with us because we’ve demanded it. That’s. That’s not going to be the connecting, deep, erotic kind of sex that we’re looking for. It’s really hard to have sex after you’ve demanded it and your partner says, okay, let’s do it. You know, it’s like, huh, that is not what I’m looking for.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:23:24]:
So kind of facing the music and saying, okay, I want you to tell me the truth. If you don’t want to have it, that’s okay. I mean, I think obviously, over the long term, we’re going to look for change, because if our partner says, good, I’m done forever, that’s a different ballgame. But I think we’re talking about solving the cycle where there’s pressure and there’s withdrawal. So we want to solve that cycle. And, you know, it is really hard to take that risk. But I’m not sure what the alternative is. You know, we could just keep pushing and pushing and pushing, and maybe a sexual pursuer is not having the sex that we want anyway.

George Faller [00:24:09]:
That’s the definition of insanity, Laurie. Keep doing the same thing, expecting different results. We know what a cycle is going to do. We know exactly the results. It’s going to to create more distance, more protection, more momentum for the negative cycle. This is how you interrupt it. This is your way of saying, hey, we’re going to stop this cycle. We’re not sure what to replace it with, but we can start to stop it.

George Faller [00:24:31]:
And I could think about my own relationship, and it really is helpful for me to really empathize the good reasons why my wife doesn’t want to have sex when she’s in a place where her body’s not responding to it. It is such a healthy stance to take to be able to say no. Like, if I can get past my own rejection and learn to champion that no, the world’s a safer place for her.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:24:58]:
Yeah. And we know that the pressure, it’s kind of like south pole magnets, right? They repel each other. So that that pressure place, you know, pushes us away from each other and pushes away good sex.

George Faller [00:25:10]:
Yeah, but it’s a mutual gift, right? Because when. When I give her permission for a healthy no, it reduces my rejection to the no, too. It helps me. It’s not something that just helps her. When you give this gift, both people have more space, right? There’s more safety in the relationship. Just like when she says to my anger, like, I get it. Thank you for fighting for us. Not only do I feel good with that, but she feels like she don’t have to be such a victim to my anger.

George Faller [00:25:42]:
She could see it in a different way. I mean, this really, this test is super important to help couples. You know, you’re not always going to stay in this space, but you always can return back to it, back to that common ground.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:25:56]:
Yeah, exactly. So definitely that was part of our cycle. You know, I would be mad, like, you know, we haven’t had sex in so long. You know, it’s been a week or it’s been two weeks, and, you know, you’re preoccupied, you haven’t initiated, and you’d go, okay, let’s go have sex. Let’s go have sex right now. It was like, not that way. You know, suddenly I didn’t want to have sex because it wasn’t just sex that I wanted. I wanted a change between us.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:26:26]:
I wanted something that there was sexual energy and chemistry and flirtation and sort of a, you know, it’s like I wanted more than that. And of course that that is what pursuers are always accused of. It’s like, right when I give you what I want, you say, you raise the bar. You know, it wasn’t, you know, just what I want. So I think that permission giving of, like, okay, if you don’t want to do it, that’s fine. Let’s. Let’s figure out a time that’s mutual, because I need to know that. I need to know your truth.

George Faller [00:26:57]:
Yeah.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:26:58]:
And I’m giving them permission. I’m giving them permission to go away, which is scary.

George Faller [00:27:03]:
It’s scary. And for you to know the given permission is also a gift to yourself that you’re not. You’re not a slave to this. No. You know that you have no power against it. Like, you could, you could befriend it and recognize it does have good time and it does have a good function. There’s an assertion of self there. As long as you know your partner is committed towards protecting you in the same way.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:27:28]:
Yeah. Awesome. Okay, so we want you to give permission for the thing that is the difficulty that you’re facing. I know it sounds crazy, but we want to help you and your partner get safe. Thanks for listening.

George Faller [00:27:45]:
Rock that test, baby.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:27:47]:
Okay, so tell us about your cutting edge training that you’re doing on success and vulnerability.

George Faller [00:27:54]:
Laurie, we just keep pushing it. Coming up with a new module on the playbook of a pursuer, playbook of a witcher. Really practical moment by moment moves of what a therapist can use. And we’re so focused on what’s happening in session enough. There’s talk about theories and these global things. I think most therapists are looking for, what do I do in this moment? Give me a tool, George. So that’s what we’re trying to do.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:28:19]:
That’s awesome. Awesome. I am so glad you guys are doing this work. I think it helps us be organized to see you do it. You do demos, you do explanations, teaching. It really is interactive, and I think that so many trainings that we sit through don’t give us an opportunity for that. So what you’re doing is really important.

George Faller [00:28:38]:
No, we try to emphasize the teach it, show it, do it model of learning. You need to have some ideas. So we try to teach, teach those, and then we try to show what it looks like implementing those ideas. But most importantly, you now got to practice it. That’s how they become yours. And that’s what we want our listeners and watchers to do, is become their own moves.

Dr. Laurie Watson [00:28:57]:
Find George and his [email protected].

Closing Announcer [00:29:03]:
Call in your questions to the foreplay question voicemail. Dial 833-MY4PLAY. That’s eight three three my the number four play and we’ll use the questions for our mailbag episodes. All content is for entertainment purposes only and should not be considered as a substitute for therapy by a licensed clinician or as medical advice from a doctor. This podcast is copyrighted by Foreplay media.

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