“I’m always the one to bring up issues. I want our relationship to be better so I work to address the discomfort between us. Somehow this is a problem and I am now seen as THE problem, a nag, someone that can be tuned out. I’ve worked so hard here. Help!!!” If this sounds familiar, then this episode on the pursuer’s position in the relationship is for you!
Join our experts today as they focus on the inside world of the emotional pursuer and help them with the change event that leads to healing in the relationship. George and Laurie work to get underneath the layers of the pursuer’s protest to help them and the emotional withdrawer in their life understand the pain, anguish and desperation of the pursuer.
This softening event is the gamechanger for pursuers and our recovering emotional withdrawers are pivotal in this change! Learn how to manage rejection and communicate the underlying need with safety and vulnerability. Our hosts’ roleplay highlights for listeners exactly what this conversation can sound like. Make sure to come back for our follow up show on the sexual pursuer next time. As always, keep it hot y’all!
Check out this episode’s sponsor: Cook Unity!
Go to cookunity.com/foreplay or use the code foreplay at checkout to get 50% off your first week of dinners! Great for those busy days when you don’t have the time to prep and cook a meal!
Transcript
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George Faller [00:01:52]:
The following content is not suitable for children.
George Faller [00:01:55]:
Welcome to the School of Love.
George Faller [00:01:56]:
Let’s do it. Our chance to break down the therapy process so you can do it at without a therapist.
George Faller [00:02:04]:
Okay George, we’re doing it all again. This time with the pursuer. We’re taking them deeper, taking them to the big change. And we know you’ve heard some of this from a withdrawer side, but right now we want to help you when you’re ready, when you’re really ready to change. This is where the pursuer gets real, right? They get real with their fears and ready to go.
George Faller [00:02:29]:
Pursuers have waited long enough, Lori. It’s their time.
George Faller [00:02:34]:
Welcome to Foreplay sex therapy. I’m Dr. Lori Watson, your sex therapist.
George Faller [00:02:39]:
And I’m George Fowler, your couples therapist.
George Faller [00:02:41]:
We are here to talk about sex.
George Faller [00:02:44]:
Our mission is to help couples talk about sex in ways that incorporate their body, their mind and their hearts.
George Faller [00:02:51]:
And we have a little bit of fun doing it right.
George Faller [00:02:53]:
Giving listen and let’s change some relationships.
George Faller [00:02:57]:
We just want to give you a little insight into what’s happening in our lives right now too. George and I are writing a book. We’re excited about this. We also want to thank our patrons for their support. Y’, all, if you haven’t supported us and would like to be with us and join us on this mission, please go to the patreon page on fourplaysextherapy.com and, and join us there. And we are so appreciative to so many of you who have supported us. Sometimes people ask, you know, can they do like a blast of support but not do a continuing contribution? And yes, you can. All you do is you do it the first month and then you turn it off.
George Faller [00:03:37]:
So if you want to give us kind of a blast of support instead of ongoing financial commitment, we totally understand that. We’d love to have you.
George Faller [00:03:46]:
And if that blast is a huge number, that’s okay too. Right, Laurie?
George Faller [00:03:51]:
George’s fantasy so that we can write in peace and not worry about quit my day job everyday practice. Right, Exactly. Okay, so we also want to invite you as if you’re a therapist listening. We’re doing a three day event in Nashville in January. So exciting. The 23rd through the 25th, we’re going to be doing a couple days of teaching and lectures and then a day of therapist interaction where you bring your questions, you bring your issues and we’re going to work on them with you. So please join us there in Nashville. We got a special rate on the hotel and we’re ready to go.
George Faller [00:04:29]:
Good stuff, Laurie. Good stuff.
George Faller [00:04:31]:
Okay, so take us to George. Pursuers again. We’re ready to change.
George Faller [00:04:38]:
Ready to change. So let’s just zoom out and just again, in the school of love, understanding the map, understand it as a theory, and the timing of where we go and why we do what we do. Right? So there are three big change events that we’re looking for when we’re working with couples. The first is de escalation. They have to understand that negative cycle. They have to start seeing that as the problem. Instead of blaming each other, they have to free up the energy that’s being sucked into those defenses. Right?
George Faller [00:05:05]:
So de escalation is right when we’re not fighting and bitter as much. We begin to see that there’s a problem between us, that it’s not just our partner’s fault. So it’s just like it sounds. De escalation means we’re not fighting as much. We’re beginning to take responsibility for our stuff.
George Faller [00:05:25]:
And a lot of couples, they can get this and lose it and that’s normal. But you gotta kinda be able to free up that energy from the defenses for that second change event which we’ve spent the last month talking about, which are a re engagement, right? In both the emotional and sexual cycle, the withdrawer actually has to have success with emotions if they’re going to learn how to respond to the pursuer, right? They, oh, every fight’s a failure for them in co regulation, which is why they go away, right? They have to learn you can experience connection with negative emotion. Once they start having success with that, they actually start to learn kind of what it feels like and how to give it back to the pursuer. So that’s the second change event withdrawal, re engagement. You got to get this withdrawal to get back on the dance floor. Once the withdrawal is back on the dance floor and got some groove and got some moves, we’re going for the one we’re talking about now. Now it’s time for the pursuer to soften, for the pursuant to have success with their emotions, right? Every fight, their partner walks away. They feel rejected and abandoned and alone.
George Faller [00:06:28]:
And now we got to get them to experience doing it differently. Remember, everybody has to have a different move if we’re going to create a positive cycle.
George Faller [00:06:36]:
Ok, so you’re, you got a wide angle here. Okay, I get you.
George Faller [00:06:39]:
Wide angle. So let’s talk about that pursuer softening, right? For so often they are overworking. They’re, you know, the one always trying to repair, always trying to talk, always trying to bring up topics and their partner is always going away. They feel so chronically unfair the way they’re treated and they’re constantly being rejected and that’s a hard spot to be. And nobody appreciates their efforts, right?
George Faller [00:07:03]:
It is. And can I just say, as a pursuer, you know, when we talk about this change event, pursuer softening, this part of me still wants to protest. I have been soft. I have done it, right? I have been curious. I have, you know, and I haven’t been met. And so I feel with all of those pursuers out there, you know, that I get it, I get it that lots of you have been doing what I’ve been doing. Right. You’ve, you’ve tried everything you can possibly try.
George Faller [00:07:32]:
Tried it this way and that way, but then sometimes when it fails, that’s when you get angry.
George Faller [00:07:37]:
Right. And maybe the word’s not great. Maybe we call it pursuer re engagement. Right. They’re trying to reengage in a different way. I’m fine with changing the word, but yes, you’re right. I mean, the pursuer unfortunately gets pathologized in the cycle. It’s been always seen as the one too much, too critical.
George Faller [00:07:53]:
When that criticism is their hope, it’s their fight for change. Because if they don’t say anything, the fear is it’s only going to get worse to distance.
George Faller [00:08:01]:
Yep. And having been in therapy myself, you know, I’ve been blamed by therapists. It’s like, oh, you’re so critical. I’m like, yeah, but did you see the 34 tries that I did that were soft and loving and I didn’t get met? So, okay, yeah, let’s, let’s pursue a re engagement.
George Faller [00:08:18]:
I like that we changed the word. There we go. So, but because the pursuer is so focused on changing their partner and a lot of what the pursuer says is so accurate and if the withdrawal, listen, things would be better, right, if you came home on time, if you, you know, initiated more, if you read the book, if whatever the feedback they’re trying to do. Right. But so often their focus is always on changing the withdrawal. And if your brain is always focused on the other or the outside, you know, they tend to not have a lot of words about their own kind of vulnerability. And the secret to this is really both partners being able to go to their vulnerability and send clear signals. And pursuers don’t send clear signals because their focus tends to not be on.
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George Faller [00:09:36]:
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George Faller [00:10:04]:
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George Faller [00:10:15]:
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George Faller [00:10:16]:
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George Faller [00:10:46]:
So you remember that acronym OIL. Here it comes again. As a way of just helping us, right? We want to honor that starts with the O. It focuses on the other. We want to say if. Hey Laurie. Yeah. I get why you’re focusing on your partner because if your partner would do something and listen, things would be really different.
George Faller [00:11:02]:
I totally get that. We want to connect to that but we want to pull them to the inside, right? That’s the eye like so I get why you do that. But you know, we always miss each other. When, when your partner does walk away, what happens to you on the inside, right? We’re really going for the impact. Like what happens? Do you feel helpless? Do you feel lonely? Do you feel rejected? Do you feel pain? Do you feel depressed? Do you feel isol. There’s so much there that they often don’t talk about. Check, check, check, check, check, check. This is where the vulnerability lies, right? We’re going to role play this but this is, this is the pain that often has never seen because the partner is always walking away or putting up walls, right? This is the place of isolation.
George Faller [00:11:47]:
And once we get to that isolation, we get to feeling rejected. Then the deepest part is the view of self, right? So the, the L is locate view of self. Like how do you make sense of all your best? Keep leading you back to a place you don’t want to be. What does that mean about you? And it doesn’t mean this is the truth. This is just an insecurity that we all have. But usually the insecurities I’m too much, you know, I’m a monster. I’m unlovable. I’m broken.
George Faller [00:12:16]:
I deserve rejection. Like, and these are the tender places that it’s so scary to want to share because, you know, you don’t want to give people evidence to reject you, confirm your worst fear. So these are the places they tend to never share.
George Faller [00:12:30]:
Exactly. Exactly. This step is. I think you just said it. What makes it so difficult? It’s like you’re admitting and giving your partner the evidence. Like, you’re right, you know, I am too much, or, you know, all of this. It’s like that admission just feels so vulnerable. Like, why would I tell somebody who’s rejecting me all the time that, you know, I feel like shit inside? You know, I mean, it’s just so hard to do this.
George Faller [00:13:00]:
And it feels so counterintuitive to admit, you know, how bad it feels. Yeah.
George Faller [00:13:06]:
This is why the timing is so important. The beauty of the model of eft. It’s like you really need the withdrawer to be safe so they can respond to the pursuer. In this place, if you have the pursuer open up too early, they’re going to open up and freak out the withdrawer who doesn’t know what to do with these emotions, and they’re going to go away, which is going to abandon the pursuer. We’re right back into a negative cycle. You need that withdrawal. They might wobble. We’ll talk about that later.
George Faller [00:13:31]:
But, you know, they want to. They’ve experienced success in their vulnerability. They want to give that gift back. This is the safe place for the pursuer to finally do it.
George Faller [00:13:41]:
Do you remember our first conversation in Core Skills? I said to you, I don’t know why you would try to re. Engage the withdrawer first. Why not soften the pursuer? And you’re like, okay, Laurie, let’s try it. And it doesn’t work because the withdrawer isn’t ready to receive it, isn’t ready to catch them. And so we have to have your partner. This is. I think as a pursuer, it feels so frustrating because it’s like, I’ve been so patient, and before this move, I’ve got to be patient and work with my partner for quite a while, make them safe again. And now it’s finally my turn.
George Faller [00:14:18]:
But, I mean, I think this is really a tough thing for pursuers to get. I probably failed a lot of couples out there. If you’re still listening, forgive me, because I used to try to get the pursuer to soften it made so much sense. I was a pursuer. I knew what it took to soften, you know, So. I know, I know. So.
George Faller [00:14:36]:
So we’re ready for that unfair feeling, right? Because it is. There is accuracy to that. The timing isn’t right. We want to help you, we want to hear what you want to say. But we want your partner to be able to be present because you deserve that. So you got to wait a little bit to. The witcher has some success. And you know, we talk a lot about the ways, but just real quick to feel like how heavy this place is for the pursuit.
George Faller [00:15:00]:
Like all this work is to not get rejected. And yet every fight they get rejected, right? Which sucks. And then not only do they get rejected, but their partner then blames them for the rejection. It’s like you’re too much because your timing is bad and you’re negative and you’re this and you’re that. Like it’s your fault I’m rejecting you. Which is pretty gaslighting, right? It’s like, what do you mean it’s my fault? Now you’re walking away. And then they start to believe a part of them that it’s their fault, that they deserve the rejection.
George Faller [00:15:28]:
I really believe that. We’ve always believed that, that it’s our fault, that we deserve rejection. That’s why this resonates, right? Because there’s wounds that are earlier than our partnership that where we have been rejected probably by our parents. And so when it comes again, it resonates as truth, right? You know, so.
George Faller [00:15:48]:
And you gotta let that all our listeners just hurt your heart. I mean, imagine what it’s like to be rejected when you don’t want to be in this place, this prison, to be alone and then does believe you deserve it because of who you are. Just isn’t enough for people. It’s too much. To me, this existentially is probably the worst moments humans have, right? And nobody tends to see this. That’s the next tragedy. Like when they ever they go to this place because their partner is overwhelmed and gone. Nobody ever helps, Nobody comes, nobody refutes the lies, nobody reassures and comforts, right? That’s what we’re trying to get them to do, right? This is the place to finally talk about those places.
George Faller [00:16:27]:
Because their partner can take it. Their partner’s keeping the focus on them. They’re not getting lost in their own sense of failure. And they can actually, you know, even if they don’t know what to do, they can make a choice. I don’t want you to be alone here anymore. You’ve been alone here too much. I could just hold your hand and we’re gonna face this together and that changes the game.
George Faller [00:16:48]:
And again, we’re talking more about the emotional pursuit this episode. We’re gonna go ahead and talk about the sexual pursuit next episode.
George Faller [00:16:56]:
Well, let’s come back and then we’re gonna role play this.
George Faller [00:16:59]:
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George Faller [00:17:36]:
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George Faller [00:18:15]:
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George Faller [00:18:41]:
Are you ready to be reluctant? But I see the value in doing this. I see the value doing this already.
George Faller [00:18:49]:
Because this doesn’t play out between us at all.
George Faller [00:18:52]:
But it is important to set the stage, set the context for where we’re at. Right? Because yes, withdrawers are a little hesitant because they don’t want to screw it up. Their fear is failure. But they also have been resourced. They’ve been loved in a place of failure where they’ve never been loved before. Right? And they want to give that Back. That caregiving, that drive to want to love your partner is stronger than their fears. So we tilt the scales now.
George Faller [00:19:15]:
They’ll empower the withdrawals to keep the focus on the pursuer. So, okay, if you’re a withdrawal and you’re trying to this exercise and you keep stumbling and getting caught up in, you just, you know, take a break, try it again. But recognize the goal is to actually respond and give this pursue a success.
George Faller [00:19:33]:
Yeah. Okay. Oh, man, I almost have tears in my eyes just thinking about doing this. Okay, I’m. I’m gonna. I’m gonna go for it.
George Faller [00:19:48]:
Joey and Luca, I don’t know if.
George Faller [00:19:51]:
We want to do our real.
George Faller [00:19:52]:
There is always real elements to things. All right.
George Faller [00:19:57]:
Okay. Joey, you know, I have appreciated you sticking with me in all these talks that we’ve been having, and I guess. I guess the part that I want to talk to you about now is kind of the stuff inside me. And, you know, when you shut down the conversation or say, you know, you don’t want to engage with me, you know, I just. I go to this really bad place, you know, I. It’s like I can’t reach you. I can’t get you. You know, inside, I just kind of get frantic and anxious.
George Faller [00:20:45]:
You know, it reminds me, like, when I was a little girl and my dad was preoccupied, you know, going to work, leaving the house when, you know, we needed him. And it was just this terrible frantic feeling. I remember, you know, begging him, please, please don’t go today. You know, we need you at home. And he, like, dismissed me. Didn’t really even answer me. I mean, that’s just kind of the memory that crystallizes for me. And it.
George Faller [00:21:14]:
And I remember this terrible feeling of just absolute hysterical, like, oh, my God, I’m going to be left without resource. And that’s kind of what it feels like. It’s like, yeah, you know, I’m sure I’m a hard partner. I’m anxious, my mind races. I, you know, can’t stay focused sometimes, and. But inside, like, I really need you. I need you to help me debrief and figure things out. And when you shut it down, I just.
George Faller [00:21:44]:
I’m like, I’m that little girl again, you know, rejected, not listened to, not seen as what I’m saying is important, and I just feel crappy.
George Faller [00:21:55]:
Yeah, I. I mean, I take ownership for that. Like, I didn’t know I was acting like your dad. I get so caught up in my own fear that I would just be in survival mode. Right. So I haven’t hung out in this place for you. I haven’t been curious. And, you know, I am sorry for that.
George Faller [00:22:13]:
And I. I know I can do that differently now. Like, I might not know what to do, but, like, you showed up for me, and I can show up for you in this place. So I do want to know more about, you know, what it feels like when you’re racing and you feel like something’s wrong with you because I want to help you in that place. Yeah.
George Faller [00:22:35]:
It just. I feel like a mess. Like I need so much, too much. You know, I’m afraid I’m gonna drown you. And, you know, and it’s like, I. I mean, who would want to be with me? You know, I. I deserve that. I deserve you going away.
George Faller [00:22:56]:
That’s what it feels like inside. Because who would want to be with this mess?
George Faller [00:23:00]:
Yeah, I do get why you make that conclusion, but that is not my truth at all. There’s no way you deserve this. I mean, you were set up to feel too much because people have let you down, and I’ve been one of the people that let you down. And it really breaks my heart that you make sense of people letting you down, and somehow it’s your fault because it is not your fault. You don’t deserve this. You deserve me to come forward like I’m doing now. And I’m sorry I haven’t done that.
George Faller [00:23:31]:
Okay. Trying to accept that, trying to take that in.
George Faller [00:23:38]:
It’s okay that you don’t. It’s okay.
George Faller [00:23:40]:
Thank you.
George Faller [00:23:41]:
You’re welcome. Would it help if I just kind of held your hand to tell you you’re not alone here. You don’t deserve this?
George Faller [00:23:49]:
Yeah. I feel like. Yeah, I could use a hug.
George Faller [00:23:54]:
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George Faller [00:24:58]:
Wow.
George Faller [00:25:02]:
Okay, so there we go. Joey gives Janie a big hug.
George Faller [00:25:06]:
Nice.
George Faller [00:25:06]:
She’s getting a hug in a place she normally never gets anything but messages. It’s her fault. That’s a very different message to be told. It’s not your fault. It’s starting to combat the lies that people have learned through years of the negative cycle.
George Faller [00:25:23]:
Yeah. And, you know, an amazing support level of support from the withdrawer. Right. You know, encouraging, even in the conversation. Interjecting in the conversation, you know, talking to her, encouraging her, which allowed her to go even a little bit deeper, you know, into that place of. That she deserves this rejection.
George Faller [00:25:49]:
And so with your has to remind themselves that the missing ingredient is presence and engagement. This is not the time to just sit back and listen, but you do want to be a bit active. You want to show this pursuer a new move. That’s if the. If the. If the fear is rejection, the antidote to that is connection. I got it. I got to show up.
George Faller [00:26:10]:
I got to let my partner know that you don’t deserve this. And this. Here comes a new outcome. And we always talk about body in, body out. Lori started to talk about, you know, in her body. She feels the rejection, the craziness in her head and chest and her stomach. What does it feel like to get that hug?
George Faller [00:26:27]:
Yeah, I mean, it feels, you know, so much better, right? To like, you know, my stomach starts to relax. You know, it’s like that warmth in the hug, I think, starts to heal and warm those places inside that just feel like a cold little ball of energy. That is painful. Yeah, it’s so good. I always say to people, listening is talking. You know, if you’re not talking, if you’re not saying what you’re hearing, if you’re not reflecting, validating, you know, then. Then the person doesn’t know that what they’re saying is going in, that you’re actually listening. I mean, I know you’re sitting there, you got your ears on, but listening is talking.
George Faller [00:27:14]:
Beautiful, right? And keep it simple. The core is being rejected and feeling like you deserve the rejection.
George Faller [00:27:23]:
Right.
George Faller [00:27:24]:
The antidote to that, the healing to that is being wanted, being accepted, being loved, experiencing connection in places you are normally always alone. Right. That creates that limbic revision, that corrective emotional experience, the rewiring of the brain. Right. When our brain says, wait a second, when you feel this, don’t just get angry. Don’t just go away, but actually listen to it and share it directly because your partner can show up for you. That’s what starts to heal these places.
George Faller [00:27:53]:
Exactly. Exactly. You know, and I mean, right. Role plays are real. So it feels good. It feels really good to feel that love coming back, you know, in this desperate place, in this admission, which is just. It’s a crazy maker to think, oh, I’m going to even tell you further that I probably deserve your rejection after all. I mean, that just doesn’t compute.
George Faller [00:28:19]:
It doesn’t make sense. But when you do it and your partner does show up for you and loves you, it heals. And what I think, George, is healing goes all the way back. We heal those parts of our partner that were wounded in childhood when we love them now, because those kinds of wounds stand outside of time. And it doesn’t change the memory, it doesn’t change what happened, but it does change and heal those parts of us.
George Faller [00:28:49]:
That’s awesome. Yeah. And it’s not just a change event for the pursuer. It’s a change event for me, the withdrawer. If my fear is failure, I’m never going to get it more right. In this moment, this is how I develop confidence. This is how it’s like, oh, this is all you’ve wanted all these years, just for me to kind of keep the focus on you, hold your hand and tell you, you don’t deserve this. Like, I can do that.
George Faller [00:29:10]:
Like, that feels really good for me. I feel more competent. I walk a little bit taller. My chest is out a little bit more. Right. This is a great moment for both people.
George Faller [00:29:20]:
You did great, too. That was a great, you know, withdraw or catch.
George Faller [00:29:26]:
And we want to see some of that appreciation on both sides. She tell me I do a great job. I’m saying I love you. This is not hard. This is like, I can’t believe we haven’t been doing this all these years. I can continue to do this. Like, my confidence is the antidote to her anxiety.
George Faller [00:29:42]:
Yeah, exactly.
George Faller [00:29:44]:
Right. And then her affirmation of what a good job I have calms my anxiety. Right. And now we’re starting to see a positive cycle. Cycle. We’re starting to see success in these places where there’s always missing. Right. I’m feeling not like a failure.
George Faller [00:29:57]:
I’m feeling successful. She’s not feeling rejected. She’s feeling accepted and wanted. We’re in a positive cycle. Right. There’s. It’s not chance that couples that can create, turn that negative cycle into this positive cycle are going to Be able to repair without a therapist, are able to kind of have the best relationships. And that’s the only difference between the best and worst.
George Faller [00:30:16]:
The ability to have these repairs that are positive cycles.
George Faller [00:30:21]:
Exactly. Okay, thanks for listening, y’. All.
George Faller [00:30:26]:
Keep it hot. Have some fun with these conversations.
George Faller [00:30:29]:
So some of you are interested in our work. We want to tell you where we are, what we’re doing.
George Faller [00:30:34]:
In January 23rd to 25th, we’re coming to Nashville in person to do three days of really kind of breaking down this process. And again, I think this should be mandatory for all therapists to just kind of have more confidence in knowing what to do and work with the sexual cycle.
George Faller [00:30:49]:
Yeah, we’ve already had lots of signups for that. By the way, George, people are also taking advantage of that early bird special. You know, we want supervisors to come. We’re giving half off to the supervisors. So please join us so that we can kind of get on the same page and understand and develop EFT further. There’s going to be two days of lecture and exercises and then a day maybe with a live and, you know, working on your tapes and your stuck places. And we’re going to go down to the honky Tonk and have dinner together and have some fun.
George Faller [00:31:23]:
Have some fun.
George Faller [00:31:24]:
Have some fun. Yeehaw.
George Faller [00:31:26]:
Yeehaw. And for all you listeners, again, if. If you have a community and you want Laura and I to come out and give a specialized training on sex, and again, I think this is so important for anybody seeing couples, then, you know, reach out to us and let’s continue to spread this message. Yeehaw. Call in your questions to the foreplay question. Voicemail. Dial 833-MY-4-PLAY. That’s 833-MY-THE- NUMBER-PLE PLAY.
George Faller [00:31:53]:
And we’ll use the questions for our mailbag episodes. All content is for entertainment purposes only and should not be considered as a substitute for therapy by a licensed clinician or as medical advice from a doctor. This podcast is copyrighted by Foreplay Media.
Laurie Watson [00:32:06]:
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George Faller [00:33:18]:
Quince.com foreplay Remember our code, ‘Foreplay’.
