In today’s episode, our hosts are tackling an important and uncomfortable conversation. This episode does contain content regarding sexual trauma and we advise all our listeners to be aware. Sexual trauma doesn’t stay in our past, it follows us in the bedroom. It is common for couples that feel safe and committed to one another to experience heightened reactions around sex if sexual trauma is part of the personal history. However, this can be confusing, frustrating and cause stress on a couple that had no apparent issues prior.
Join George and Laurie today as they expertly and carefully, discuss how sexual trauma affects couples and their sexual experiences. They will walk you through the signs of sexual trauma and the 5 steps to heal in your relationship. For both partner’s in the relationship, there is a role to take in the healing and our hosts want listeners to feel optimistic that healthy relationships can heal traumatic experiences. Laurie reminds us that the grief around these experiences will end and joy and pleasure await on the other side. We can’t recommend enough that conversations around this topic require loads of safety, compassion and understanding. We thank you for being brave with us today and everyday!
Transcript
George (00:04.214)
Sexual trauma. Heavy topic. Unfortunately, way too common. Let’s talk about how to help.
George (00:24.812)
Right, Laurie, both of us see way too much of this in our therapeutic offices, right, we’re people.
George (00:48.589)
Hmm.
George (01:21.632)
I would say those statistics are probably unreported, or some of them too, right? So they’re probably higher.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:26.532)
Absolutely. Thank you for saying that. And I think men under report because of the
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:10.595)
Yeah, I mean I think that men probably under report because of the stigma you know associated with sexual abuse so and all all victims of sexual abuse Don’t report as much so these stats could be much higher
George (02:27.372)
And it’s such a range. mean, you said in childhood, there’s abuse in families or neighbors or, then you got going off to high school and college and all the things that are happening there and previous relationships. mean, there’s so many possibilities for how sexual trauma can show itself in the relationship. And I love that you emphasized how, you know, what happened in the past impacts what’s happening in a present moment.
You know, even though your partner’s safe, you love your partner, these echoes of the past come back to us and they really start to kind of mess with, you know, being present with your partner. So we got to figure out how to help.
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:10.355)
Exactly. And I think that, you know, the past can come sort of raging back with flashbacks and pain, but it also sometimes comes back more quietly. Trauma, you know, manifests in our current sexual life in more subtle ways that make people freeze and make them kind of withdraw because, you know, perhaps, you know, they
perhaps they have or haven’t shared with their partner about this, but it can be a roar and it can be a whisper, but both ways it shuts down sex until it’s healed, which I hope one of the things that we talk about in the podcast here is that, you know, we really believe trauma can be fully healed and people have a right and the ability to recover their sexual health, their sexual freedom and their sexual pleasure.
George (04:10.925)
Yeah, I love, let’s nerd out for a second. I mean, I think it’s important to get a clear target. I think so many of us believe you can’t change memories, right? They are what they are. But actually the research, know, especially a lot of work of Bruce Ecker, memory reconsolidation, they talk about…
If you can add a new experience to the old memory, literally it rewires the brain, how the brain processes that memory. So that really is the key. It’s like, if you’re just going to retell the old story of trauma and it’s just going to do the same thing over and over again, it’s always going to be stuck in that loop. But if you can add something new to that old memory, like that is really the simplicity of the target of change that we’re working towards.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:58.083)
So true. And I think the thing that we want to add to the trauma memory, particularly is the empathy of our partner, right? Listening to that story, caring about the self of that person as they were enduring it. Because when you’re in trauma, you’re alone. And so bringing a loved partner with you to the memory changes the way you feel about the memory, even though it’s really, really
George (05:56.811)
Let’s keep it simple and we know this is not simple, right? But the simple target is the missing ingredient was care given having another System, know humans nervous system come alongside you and co-regulate so you’re not alone in this place I mean what has happened is the person took advantage of you. They were selfish whatever they did, right? They made it all about them and they did not see you in this critical moment where you needed help
Right. So that’s the missing ingredient. Having another caregiving system say, Oh my God, I’m so sorry and I don’t want you to be alone and I’m willing to come next to you in this place that already starts to rewire the brain.
George (06:38.306)
Well, why don’t we give an example of this, Laurie?
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:55.755)
Sophia had an experience in college. She was with a man on a date and I think it was like her second date and she goes back to his apartment and he date rapes her and I would say, I would even go further, right? Date rape is rape. So he rapes her and you know, it’s just moving really fast and you know, shoves her dress up and her underwear down and he’s inside
before she kind of can say boo and she’s saying I’m not ready for this, I’m not ready for this, he doesn’t listen. And in her recounting she says, like she blames herself, right? I don’t know if I was loud enough, I don’t know if he got it that I didn’t wanna do this, I didn’t say no, I just said I’m not ready, but he kept going and he kept going and that is rape. And I think that that needs to be acknowledged. And now when she’s with Miguel,
Thank
everything starts out when they’re dating really fine. But once they get married, she starts to shut down. And she doesn’t even recognize in the beginning what’s happening. But her body gets triggered by certain things. She gets triggered when he kisses her neck, which is what this guy did. He kissed her neck and then he’s shoving her clothes aside. And she gets triggered when he’s on top because her body is actually remembering the rape.
And for her, it wasn’t an act of flashback, but it was more like she just…
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:39.647)
She goes numb and starts to dissociate from the moment she can’t get into it. She’s stopping having orgasms because her body is closing down. for her, know, she felt like I dealt with that long ago. She doesn’t even think it’s relevant to tell Miguel about what happened.
George (09:01.298)
This is a critical point to emphasize. mean, the body does not know time. The body keeps score. So if you…
Kissing on the neck, your body associates that with something really bad happening that you’re going to be abused and alone and shame and nasty things. And it’s, as soon as it anticipates that it’s right back into that scene. That’s what it’s supposed to do. It’s an alarm system. It’s given us information. So I think most people don’t recognize that they think where it’s much more cognitive and like we think things out, which, you know, this doesn’t even access the thinking brain. Right. It just, the, the, body just reacts.
And then now she’s just trying to cope and put pieces together afterwards. like, you know, you can see how this starts to build momentum to shut her down.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:45.707)
Yeah, mean, she feels her body is triggered and she feels unsafe in the moment. And of course, if you feel unsafe in the moment, you’re going to want to avoid the moment. So she’s doing two things. She’s dissociating and numbing out when she’s having sex and she’s starting to avoid having sex by turning him down. And this really intensifies the pursue withdrawal cycle, right? Because he’s getting these messages because
George (10:18.392)
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:26.091)
I can’t let go because I’m going to be overwhelmed by the memory, you know, and I was in a bad way overwhelmed by another person. So I can’t let sensation overwhelm me. So she’s tightly controlling her experience. This is a bad scenario.
George (10:43.128)
Yep. This, and this is, I mean, it’s worse than bad. mean, this is where cycles exacerbate trauma, right? Where he doesn’t know her story. He gets rejected. He gets frustrated before you know it. He’s also not able to give her care given. So it’s just a replay of the same scene where she’s in distress and nobody sees it. Nobody knows it. They’re caught up in their own stuff, right? Which is re-traumatizing. And no wonder why this thing gets worse over time, but I do want to highlight.
You’re talking about dissociating, right? That’s that red brain response. She tried fight or flight, yellow brain. She tried to say, I’m not ready, you know, and, and blue past that stop sign. Like it didn’t work when fight or flight doesn’t work. A body has no choice to just freeze and just try to endure the bad thing that’s happening. So when people are not really is the sign of trauma, red brain.
Right? Where they feel helpless, they have no sense of agency, so they dissociate, freeze, they do all these things that just survive the ordeal. Right? That’s a telltale marker. So if you’re listening and you think about like moments in your relationship where you dissociate, you freeze, you check out, that usually is a sign that, you know, this is where you need help.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:53.855)
Exactly, exactly. And I, you know, I’m thinking about her and other people that feel ashamed of the trauma. Like her shame was, I wasn’t loud enough. I’m like, no, you didn’t need to be loud enough. You said no. You, you said I’m not ready. That’s enough. He should have stopped. That was rape. And I remember another woman who was molested by her brother. And she was
George (12:06.286)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (12:29.731)
you know, her brother and she didn’t and you know, I’m like, my God. So first of all, we got it. As we come back from our break, we need to help people feel the courage, the necessity to tell your partner, A, you need their empathy. And B, then that demystifies this thing that’s happening between the two of you so that you can tackle it as a team, right? So let’s
George (12:59.201)
Amen.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:08.119)
or how you can tell your partner. I’ll add that in, Joe. You can correct that. So I understand shame, George, keeps people from telling their partners about dreadful trauma. And sometimes partners don’t respond well to it, right? Sometimes they…
You know, they worry about the implication of it. You know, what does this mean? You were molested by a man when you were little and you were a boy and maybe you’re gay. You know, I mean, sometimes partners really do not do a good job of holding.
the trauma and keeping the person as innocent and giving that really strong message. And if you’re a partner listening to your partner talk about their trauma, that’s the big message. It wasn’t your fault. And I want to be with you as you tell this story again.
George (14:05.102)
The secret to shame is the secrecy. It’s so counterintuitive to want to talk about places you don’t like in yourself because you’re giving evidence for the people you love to see you worse and confirm your worst fears. So it seems like the only move is to hide, but in hiding the shame, just, you know, that is hell to me. You’re alone, you’re in pain, you’re afraid, and you don’t like yourself in that place. So yes, is the antidote to shame is connection. You got to have the courage, but you need a partner.
who recognizes, you know, my job in this moment is to give you caregiving to keep the focus on you, you know, that that’s, if not, why should the person change?
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:45.127)
Exactly. The secure partner’s response has to be empathy, attunement, and patience, right? Because sometimes the story doesn’t come out in full and the person tests the waters, right? Are you a safe person to tell this story to? Are you going to see me as blameless or are you going to blame me the way the perpetrator did? know, well, I raped you because you were so seductive or I mean, all the horrors that we hear, right?
from victims and survivors of trauma, what they’ve been told by the perpetrator, that somehow or another it was their fault. And as a partner, we want to hold our partner blameless. We want to be empathic. We want to give that caregiving response with attuned questions, which is not, why didn’t you tell me this before? It’s kind of the worst thing to say. Why didn’t you tell me this before? It’s like, OK, because I now feel safe enough to tell you.
George (15:46.999)
Yeah, I mean, that’s the…
What shame offers is a sense of control and otherwise massively helpless. mean, that is what trauma is. I have no control. So I try to grasp it wherever I can, but let’s talk about, we came up with five steps. You know, healing trauma. We’ll talk about how we apply this with Sophia and Miguel, right? The first step is sharing your story, which is the bravest thing to do. And the second step is feeling what you feel like leaning into that story. The third step is kind of externalizing this toxic
message trying to unite against what happened. Both people are victims to this. The fourth is then you got to grieve, right? You got to grieve this thing has impacted both people. There’s loss here for both sides and we’re just trying to make space for that. And then the fifth and most important step is asking and receiving help. I mean, trying to create a new ending to the story.
George (16:44.547)
Mm-hmm.
George (17:09.568)
Sidebar, when we’re writing, I mean, these are the things that we’re highlighting. The root of trauma is a failure in co-regulation. Somebody betrayed you in that space. The healing is gonna be success in co-regulation, somebody being there for you in that space.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:48.519)
And both partners have feelings about this, right? I mean, sometimes, certainly,
with the person who has been traumatized, reopening that trauma is going to open up intense emotions. And for the partner listening, it could quite possibly open up intense emotions, know, rage at the perpetrator, you know, I’m going to go kill that person, you know, it could, it could open up all kinds of things. think what you said in the trauma healing process is really important that while it could open up,
George (18:31.935)
Yep.
George (18:39.49)
That’s the mission.
George (18:43.37)
Exactly. And it is important later on, your feelings are important. It’s just the wrong time to do it. So you just got to discipline yourself, not give the microphone to the party that wants to make it about you. The problem here is the other person always makes it about them instead of the victim in this spot. So if you can resist that urge, write it down. We’re going to get to it. It’s super important. It’s just not the right time to talk about.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:06.647)
Yeah, yeah, so during this exchange of telling the trauma, the focus is on the survivor who has managed this. We’re gonna keep, we’re gonna be reflective, we’re gonna affirm their emotions as making sense, whether it’s the big emotions of terror or the sort of the more subtle emotions of dissociation and withdrawal.
George (19:33.314)
Yeah. I mean, I imagine, you know, with Miguel, he can get so angry. He’s like, I want to kill your brother now. I’m going to go talk to him right away. now he’s introducing all this other stuff and complications and what’s going to happen. like, know, Sophia don’t want to hear that right now. We might have to do all those things down the road. They are important, but right now, Sophia is letting you in. You really got to keep the focus on what she’s doing.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:45.751)
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:57.427)
Exactly, exactly. What’s our step three here?
George (20:02.198)
I think, you know, as they start to feel into it, step three is externalizing that toxic message. You know, it isn’t Sophia’s fault, right? I she said no, she didn’t want this. You know, it happened anyway, and she beats herself up for it. So really trying to put the blame where the blame deserves, right? On the perpetrator, not on her.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:37.215)
Almost as a traumatized partner, you can’t hear that enough because it’s so confusing, especially in situations where there might have been trust initially, like on a date or in a childhood molestation situation where you’re dependent on that person. I mean, in violent rape, it’s often a little clearer that the perpetrator is the bad guy, the bad one.
But in situations where there might have been a more complicated relationship, that’s especially when the survivor needs to hear, not your fault, wasn’t you.
George (21:15.192)
Yeah. And they can take it in and then they’re to lose it again, right? They’re going to go back to blaming themselves because they spent decades doing this. So it’s just not a one time thing. It’s like if you could give permission, like it’s OK to blame. I get why you blame yourself. You’ve been alone with this your whole life, but it’s not your fault. Like these gentle reminders that give permission for going back to your old move, but encouraging like this really isn’t your fault. You didn’t ask for this.
You didn’t ask for your body to hold on to this. mean, you truly were a victim in what just happened here. like having that reassurance from your partner is super important.
George (21:55.565)
And when you start to make progress on that, then you do got to make a little space for the loss. It has changed your life for both partners, right? It’s set up negative cycles. There’s grieving on both sides that says, if this didn’t happen, our lives probably would have been different. I mean, certainly there’s an opportunity we get to at the end, but like, just to make room for that loss.
George (22:51.51)
great.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:01.125)
free fall of sexual exploration and great sex. And it’s just so darn unfair. And it’s unfair to both parties, to the survivor and to their partner who, you know, it whacks them in the face as well. Like, wow, we were having sexual connection and then suddenly there’s nothing and you’re so withdrawn and shut down and I don’t get it. you know, it is something that they need to grieve that, but I think that grief
George (23:24.589)
Yeah.
George (23:49.677)
Yeah, Sophia was able to get there, right? When she’s more grounded, she’s more resource, she’s able to see, hey, this kind of sucks for Miguel. He thinks he’s getting this kind of open sexual being who all of sudden shuts down and can feel like bait and switch. And just her permission to him really just allows him to discharge that stress and be able to refocus on her, which then sets up the climax, right? The last step, which is asking and receiving help.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:49.989)
that helps in this process toward recovery. But how do they do that and stay safe? And so what I like to do is offer several exercises so that they don’t have to be afraid of either a flashback or dissociation, the numbing, the red brain, right? And one of the ones we’ve brought out was sort of head on heart.
so that when we listen to a heartbeat, it regulates our body. And so what I tell couples is, look, if you start to feel yourself shut down or you have a flashback, it’s probably going to wreck that sexual experience. But it’s better that we lose one battle than we lose the war. So just knowing that that’s going to happen, how are we going to handle it? And being prepared stops panic. Preparation stops panic. And so we have to have an exercise.
and this is what I suggest, it’s like, go ahead, stop the sexual encounter, both people know this is gonna happen, the partner pulls their surviving partner onto their chest, and they just rest together again so that they can get re-regulated. It’s a really good way to continue to be sexual without fear of, okay, I’m gonna have to have this reaction.
George (26:16.601)
Yep.
And it creates the safety needed to take the ultimate risk, which is to ask for help. So having Sophia be able to tell Miguel no, like to find her voice, the thing that was taking away, to have somebody listen to that no. And it was beautiful where Miguel not only listens to the no, but he says, I appreciate your no, because it means you stay with me instead of you leaving and dissociating and going away. Like your no is good for both of us to be
I mean and for her to hear that think how healing that is that her know is wanted because she’s so important That’s a limbic revision right that causes her brain to go. Wait a second when somebody touches my neck It doesn’t always have to leave to shame in these bad feelings It could lead that I’m so important to somebody that they want to hear my voice and that’s a radical difference
Laurie Watson, PhD (27:08.515)
Exactly. And this, think what you’re saying is so important, it gives the voice back to the survivor, you can say no, you can say stop, and it will be respected by your partner. And the partner adding that in saying, Yeah, tell me that I want to hear that right? I mean, it’s so healing.
George (27:33.682)
Yes. Well, we hope that our listeners, if you experience trauma, that there is a way out of it. There’s a way of dealing with it, which is much better with your partner than being alone and facing the dragons by yourself.
George (28:06.454)
you’re not alone.
